Universal clear over Kirker/LDS

K

kmatch

When shooting universal clear over Kirker enamel, should I use Kirker's Laser Dry (basemaker/flattener) or shoot the Kirker as a single stage before clearing?
 
Does Kirker have a clear they recommend? I have no clue about this stuff.

If not, as a safety factor you might look at an omni or even a demension clear for compatibility purposes.
 
That seems to contradict "Uses: This clear can be used on any job whether all-over or spot. This clear can also be sprayed
over anyone’s base coat and over any activated single stage paint after four hours, although preferably wait over night. Because this clear buffs so well, it’s an excellent
choice for custom paint jobs and motorcycle gas tanks." taken from your UC tech sheet.

The paint in question is activated which meets the criteria above and when I ordered the UC nothing I said (I don't remember the full conversation) seemed to raise any flags with your staff. So, is there a test I can do that would give results in a short time (lifting, solvent pop) or what?
 
It will work but you are going from one end of the quality scale to the other end and that scares me, not short term but long term, sometimes lower grade products will work better over certain things long term.

Yes it will work.
 
Either way you go, contact Kirker and find out how long you are allowed to wait before applying clear. You'll want to wait as long as possible before applying the clear.

If your base color is a metallic, do a test panel to see if the clear is going to move the metallic around. You'll need to adjust your technique if it does.

Most of us have discovered the hard way that just because a cheap base color can be made to work, it's not without the risk of problems, and that applies to all high tech clears, not just SPI.
 
Long story short, but when I bought the Kirker paints a couple of years ago I did so out of being poor and I couldn't find one negative review from an actual user. Sure, many post "it's crap", but none of those claim to have used it. Even today I can't find any harsh remarks from actual users - only armchair quarterbacks. Users state it's "OK" or better with most concerns being related to flowout and that fits what I'm doing. Nowadays, I'm not quite as poor but I can't stand the thought of wasting it. No metallics here. What are some potential problems having it as a basecoat sandwiched between spi Epoxy and UC? I can test for quick problems but what are some long term issues that could pop up? Many thanks for the discussion!
 
Understand your frustrations for finding info but shops don't use it and that is why the poor feedback, lot of the users never painted before using, is another problem.

Only person I know that uses it, was Jim Clark on here (the other Jimc, as he says)
He is an expert on the stuff, pm him, he will help you out.
 
The main problem I have had adapting slow drying low end base coats to function with new high solids clears is contraction or dieback of the clear due to solvents remaining in (or being re-absorbed out of)the clear by the base coat. To minimize this, allow plenty of dry time before clear. Using SPI reducer in the base coat (if possible) can help too, since this helps make the solvent blend of the base more compatible with the clear. Allowing plenty of flash time between every coat of base and between coats of clear also helps ensure a glossy finish.

Basically the point is to take your time, the longer, the better in most cases. The exception to this is products with a "recoat window," which is why it's important to get advice from the maker of the product as to maximum flash times.

In extreme cases, delamination can result from solvents being trapped under the finish. I'm sure Barry can add more to this aspect and others, I have not experienced delam with the products I am using.
 
Here's my experience.
First, don't use enamel, especially theirs.
Second, Never ever use "Lazer Dry" Never, ever.
I had a complete delamination useing that stuff,
redid it by the book, and it peeled off too.
took about 3 yrs both times.
(Even the place I bought it from admitted seeing
a lot of problems)
The first time, everyone said I didn't use it right,
So the second time I was very careful to follow directions,
same result, enamel pigment turned and then the clear peeled.

I painted my car I drive now with Kirker's urethane,
then cleared it with SPI Universal.
(waited overnight to clear it, no sanding involved)
It's been 4 yrs now and it still looks great, their
urethane is pretty good stuff. At least I know
it is with SPI clear on it. (LOL)
I also painted my boat and trailer with Kirker Urethane,
It's been real tough against scratches.
So go with the urethane if you can and avoid the enamels.
 
Here's an idea, if what you have is not urethane.

You could buy some of the Kirker clear that is specified for use on top of the product you have, apply it, then when it is cured enough, wet sand it and apply the SPI clear. Two clear sessions makes for an outstanding job in any case, and I believe this method would be safest and produce the highest quality. All the wait times between coats would still apply no matter the procedure.
 
crashtech;3184 said:
Here's an idea, if what you have is not urethane.

You could buy some of the Kirker clear that is specified for use on top of the product you have, apply it, then when it is cured enough, wet sand it and apply the SPI clear. Two clear sessions makes for an outstanding job in any case, and I believe this method would be safest and produce the highest quality. All the wait times between coats would still apply no matter the procedure.

Anyone object to this? I already have the Kirker clear, it's just that I heard so much good about SPI I decided to switch. This could save me some waste even if it's not the ideal solution.
 
I have given this a lot of thought and if me, here is how, I would do it.

Two coats of the K-clear, let set a couple of days and wet-sand, put outside for two full days, then wash with waterborne and let set 2-3 hours, then apply the SPI.

Lots of reasons I say this and there is only one thing I do want to point out.
It is a chemical fact, that the best clear in the world, can only do so much to protect a lower grade pigment, JC pointed this out on one of his jobs.
 
armchair quarterbacks ???? once again , a professional painter does not have to use a product to know if it is junk or not. duplicolor , por15 , kirker , cheap 2nd line paint . this is not hr.com. there are no wanabe's here posting advice. what will happen is the cheap kirker will fail and spi will get the blame.
 
So all Kirker paint will fail?
Surely you don't believe that.
Kirker has been selling paint for over 100 yrs
and it's used on thousands of cars every year.
How many have failed?
 
Shine, your level of respect just dropped a couple of points with me. The net is full of armchair quarterbacks. HR is one place, but I frequent MANY boards. To say even Rustoleum "will" fail is a stretch. Sure, the likelyhood is probably 98%, well, 99.9%, but the 2% room for error changes "will" to "might". Lastly, to even suggest I'd blame SPI for something I'm knowingly manipulating without having the first clue about how I roll, well, that just pisses me off. You've done better. I don't blame others for my mistakes.

Back to topic: Speaking of second lines, if I were to contact my local jobber (Martin Senior), what are their products that would work well sandwiched between SPI epoxy and UC? What do I need to know before walking in the door?
 
jcclark;3206 said:
So all Kirker paint will fail?

How many have failed?

I've searched and searched... Yours makes 1, err, 2 (counting the second time)... There's just not too many complaining about it. Like anything, I'm sure there are many cases just unreported, but I can find bad news about ANYTHING on the net. I think Shine is having an off day.
 
i did not realize this site was going to turn into another hr.com. my bad for posting at all. i will not make that mistake again.
 
Barryk;3202 said:
I have given this a lot of thought and if me, here is how, I would do it.

Two coats of the K-clear, let set a couple of days and wet-sand, put outside for two full days, then wash with waterborne and let set 2-3 hours, then apply the SPI.

Lots of reasons I say this and there is only one thing I do want to point out.
It is a chemical fact, that the best clear in the world, can only do so much to protect a lower grade pigment, JC pointed this out on one of his jobs.

I would like to add that it would be a fine idea to do a test panel along with this job, like a 12" square of metal, doing all the things to the metal as to the car. Then apply the SPI clear to the test panel first (don't do the vehicle yet), and observe it for a few hours. The reason I say this is because if the Kirker clear is slow to dry or crosslink, there could be an adverse reaction to being covered in clear again in such a relatively short time period. I'd say that the longer the Kirker paint is allowed to cure before re-clearing, the better. That actually applies to most paints too, when there is an unknown cure rate, not just Kirker. It would be less of a concern in the summertime, when you could rely on sunlight to pretty much bake the crap out of the coating pretty shortly.

P.S. Also, some older technology enamels actually rely on oxygen to cure, so if they are covered up too quickly, their cure rate may be permanently arrested. It might be helpful for you to post links to the product description sheets for all the materials you have in your possession.
 
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