After reading all the product spec sheets for all the spi primers, the only one that does not spell out in bold letters not to spray on bare metal is the turbo. I have some projects where another step (epoxy) would be unnecessary and also for collision work, can the turbo be sprayed DTM?
Turbo Primer
- Thread starter bmenard
- Start date
jlcustomz
evil painter
Turbo primer is just faster cure than the other 2k primers
In the world of acceptable enough, such as collision repair ,etching primer gets used on raw metal, then 2k primer.
In the world of what's best,epoxy primer on bare metal is 1st choice. It seals
better, bonds better, & is tougher.
Want to do it right or hopefully ok?
In the world of acceptable enough, such as collision repair ,etching primer gets used on raw metal, then 2k primer.
In the world of what's best,epoxy primer on bare metal is 1st choice. It seals
better, bonds better, & is tougher.
Want to do it right or hopefully ok?
bmenard;n79406 said:
It was an oversight on our part.
All our 2k primers could be sold as direct to metal primers but I never recommend it and unless its a sliver of metal showing don't ever recommend it.
The one thing you should be aware of, anytime you use a direct to metal urethane primer over bare metal, it should be a used car lot paint job or a car that will not be owned by its owner in three years.
Not really followed the DTM bs but in past it has been a couple of companies that do private label for other people that have promoted this stuff (that should be worth a 1000 words about the quality), I don't know of late but I don't think any major paint company would sell it, maybe in their crap line but not in their good line.Like I said, not kept up so don't know.
Id rather see acid etch primer used first.
Id rather see acid etch primer used first.
Barry;n79560 said:
Had a conversation with a very high up at a major yesterday, known him for years and a good person.
Not getting out like I use to, I asked him about this statement, i made on DTM- Urethanes to see if anything changed in last three years.
He said no major company would ever bring this out in their good line as if they were a warranty shop, could be a disaster waiting to happen.
In past 25 years there have been about 2-3 companies that do the majority of private label making very low grade products and they tell the company slapping there label on it this stuff is best thing since sliced bread because, if they don't know enough to make it themselves they don't have a clue what it will or won't do. Yea heard it all before, used on space shuttle, F18's, Subs and bridges. Unless you doing work for a used car lot, run screaming.
How about more facts so you can see how good this $75 primer is (price for a fender seller, under about 20 different names.)
A manufacturer, cannot exist unless he at his best price for volume makes 50%+.
A jobber cannot exist unless they make 33%+ (this is an old time figure that equals a break even point).
So now you have a manufactuer, a private lableer and a lot of times a warehouse also getting his 25% in the mix.
T
true65mustang
A big difference in a lot of DTM primers that I've used and ones that I'm aware, the DTMs and polyester primers although they say DTM some absorb water. This is bad water exposure equals corrosion.
danp76
Oldtimer
RM Diamont BASF has a DTM primer I believe called power fill. They warranty the repair for the same length of time as using their epoxy, "lifetime.". I'm not sure if it's an epoxy hybrid or how well it works in replacement to epoxy. I can see where speed can be a concern for collision type repairs, but not sure it's as good as epoxy as they claim.
crashtech
Combo Man & Mod
AAE;n80094 said:
If you can't afford the time, you can't produce the ideal quality of work as others who can. That's just the way it is. However, I will say that the 1:1:1 mix of epoxy, applied not too heavily, will beat any 1 or 2K self-etch hands down, though in cold conditions I would not even use that without some kind of forced heat or IR cure. The conditions that you have described working in, I cannot even imagine doing work that would come out acceptable, much less last. Which is to say my hat is off to you if you have seen that work done at low temps can really stand the test of time!
AAE
Learner
I know and your right. My work is primarily for dealers. I try to do things as right as I possibly can. The dealer is my customer. Not the purchaser. Ask Barry, I have called him more than either one of us wants to admit. He knows that it bothers me to no end knowing that i am serving the lowest common denominator. Non-dealer work I try to do the best possible. Am I at your level? No,and I know that. I do try to improve with every job. I carry 3 short wave lamps and a propane forced air heater and use them. My shop gets to 80 in the dead of winter with ease and I have another medium wave lamp there.crashtech said:
I ask. I fail. I learn.
Chris_Hamilton
Trying to be the best me, I can be
crashtech;n80126 said:
Sad thing is Crash some shops don't know or even care if it lasts. (ask me how I know
) Heck every shop I have ever worked at with the exception of 2 used urethane primer over bare metal and filler. I've had to do a lot of stuff I would never do if it was my business but a Job is a Job and you can only argue with the Boss but so much. But it is amazing the ignorance within the Industry (Collision Repair) especially in my area. I'll be so glad when the day finally arrives when I can quit working for someone else and leave Collision work behind.AAE you have my sympathies my friend. It is a thankless task working for Dealers. I spent 3 years working for a former boss (best shop I ever worked in), he sold the business and retired but had to get back into it when the IRS contacted him and informed him that he owed over a million dollars in back income tax. Turns out his wife did the book keeping and kept most of the money that was supposed to go to the IRS and spent it instead. Anyways he opened a shop that basically did work for one major salvage yard in the area (one of the biggest on the East Coast). We pretty much only did the hardest hit rebuilders for these guys. Stuff that the other shops would'nt do. Trucks like F250 SD and F350 SD that were mangled. Many times I would have one on the frame machine for upwards of 2 weeks. It was always repair this, save that. Brutal work. I only say this cause I know where you are, keep your head up and things will keep getting better.
crashtech
Combo Man & Mod
AAE;n80094 said:
I hope what I wrote didn't come off the wrong way. I meant no disrespect to what you do, and I certainly don't want you to think I would put you in some lower category. It's just a different kind of work, made very difficult by extreme conditions. Seeing the problems associated with applying epoxy at low temps firsthand, I just think it's probably not compatible with a fast, low temp process. Maybe if you have a larger repair that you can buy some time on? But that's probably it.
AAE
Learner
Epoxy certainly couldn't work in my typical environment. That's why I'm always looking for an alternative. I know nothing will surpass epoxy but will 2k really be that concerning on a production type repair?crashtech said:
I'm self taught and not a good teacher. I respect all you guys. Just want real life answers not just what I can read for myself.
I think using the IR lamps on moderate sized spots will be a great improvement.
B
Bob Hollinshead
Just imagine how great life would be if we had a fast curing epoxy surfacer. What about the UV cured DTM primers-is bare metal adhesion good? I know of one shop that loves the stuff for spot repairs. Might be the way to go for used car work given the speed even if it's pricey.
Bob Hollinshead;n80163 said:
They are perfect for spot work if you have a proper wave lamp to cure them.
Was not long ago one company said don't need a lamp use the sun, and that does not cure all the way through, problems showed up fast and that pretty well killed a lot of the market.
A few years ago I thought about making it as what they charge is nuts for this product but most shops are not going to spend $2000 or so for the proper lamp.
There are 100's of ways to make an epoxy and there are fast ones out there but fast and durable don't go together and 90% of our epoxy are used on high dolar jobs so I can't pay games. I do tell production shops all the time for speed get the PPG LF for speed.
bmenard;n79443 said:
We have a number of shops that use it this way against my advice but the smartest shop who has been doing this for 15 or so years says;
Each painter (3-4) averages 1-2 come backs per year where there is a problem BUT they make money redoing because of the time they save on all the jobs over the year.
To sum up they are a dealership and as he points out, facts that show if you wreck you car 97.7% of the people will not own in 3 years, so minor gamble for him, also they are just doing small repairs, so when one comes back, its usually one panel and a finger print bubbling.
If a restro shop wanted to do this, I would tell him to use someone else product ALL the way through the job, so I don't get blamed.
B
Bob Hollinshead
I'd never use DPLF on anything LOL. I would bet 90% of the collision shops in this area do spot repairs with urethane surfacer direct to bare metal but there typically isn't a lot of bare metal showing.Barry said: