Sealer Adhesion Problems

All reducer is not the same. All bets are off if you are using another brand. The only brand that Barry has told me will work in place of SPI is PPG DT reducers.

You are setting yourself up for failure intermixing products like you are. Reading this I'm confused what you are doing and what your issues actually are. You sprayed Kapci 2K urethane primer then sprayed SPI sealer and then sanded? Then sprayed more 2K primer?

First thing I would say is stop worrying about adhesion. First get the car sanded and ready for sealer. Prime more if you have to. Sand it by hand. Put the DA in the toolbox. That is part of the issue right there. Sand it by hand. Finish it with 600 wet. Important since you are doing a three stage and the pearl midcoat will show any 400 or coarser scratches that show through the base. Once you get the panels correct and sanded then sealing it is very simple. Apply one coat of whatever sealer you have. If it's SPI urethane sealer, I would strongly suggest you order some SPI reducer. Either way. spray one coat of sealer. If you have any dust nibs ideally after 20-30 minutes you can nib sand (that means lightly by hand) them with ideally 1000 grit. If you don't have any, use your 600 wet paper dry and very lightly by hand sand the nibs. Tack off and then apply your basecoat. With a urethane sealer, you have about a 2 hour window max to get your first coat of base on. Tack between coats. Get coverage with the base, then apply your midcoat. Two coats is all you have to do of the mid. Keep tacking between coats. Then a final tack before clear. Clear apply at least three coats if you plan to sand out any defects and buff.
 
Use a guidecoat for sanding if you have to. You sand the primer till all the guidecoat is removed. Or fill any lows that remain, and repeat the process. Sounds like you are sanding without knowing when to stop. If your panels are straight then one final application of primer. Two coats, then 320 dry followed up by 600 wet. Use guidecoat.
 
@600_F , does this mean you want to use non-SPI reducer in the epoxy? I would call @Barry before doing so.
Yes, that is correct. And I actually went ahead and sprayed it with the epoxy at 1:1 and 50% reduced. The reducer I used is Limco/BASF LR13 slow reducer.
Use a guidecoat for sanding if you have to. You sand the primer till all the guidecoat is removed. Or fill any lows that remain, and repeat the process. Sounds like you are sanding without knowing when to stop. If your panels are straight then one final application of primer. Two coats, then 320 dry followed up by 600 wet. Use guidecoat.
I am using a guide coat every time I sand. I had to take everything on the truck to bare metal, so I start with a 80 grit fiber resin disk to remove the peeling OEM basecoat and the OEM e-coat. Then I cleaned the metal with a water based cleaner and let it sit for a couple hours, then sanded the metal with 120 with the DA (Barry said I should be ok with 120 grit on the bare metal). I then sprayed 2 coats of unreduced SPI epoxy and let it cure overnight. Then I sprayed 2 coats of the Kapci 2k urethane and started with 120 grit on a long block to get it straight, then reapplied guide coat and moved to 220 by hand, then sprayed another couple coats of the Kapci 2k urethane and reapplied guide coat and went to 320 on the long block as well and then finished all the curved spots and inside door handles and stuff with a 400 grit foam pad. After checking by hand for waves or imperfections, I reapplied guide coat and did 400 grit on the DA. On the other panels I did I applied another coat of guide coat and went to 600 on the DA, so that's where I was wondering if I was maybe going too far on the grit.

And yes I understand I shouldn't mix brands and I was trying not to, but I have had to go to 3 different paint shops to try to get a color match and between that and everything being out of stock its been very difficult trying to get the right products. From now on hopefully I can try to stick with one brand (except for the basecoat since I have to get the brand that will give me the best color match). I need to try and just order online what I need as the people at the paint store keep giving me dirty looks and roll their eyes when I try to ask for the correct brand reducer and matching primer haha.

I should have a window of time without rain tomorrow and that's why I went ahead and sprayed the epoxy sealer so I could let it cure overnight and it be ready tommarrow. Unfortunately, I don't have my paint booth blown up so the bugs are out. I got the SPI epoxy sealer sprayed on but the first spray I did I had my pressure too high and the fan pattern reversed, so I accidentally made a big long run on the side. Other than that and the bugs, it seemed to lay down really smooth, I think it may have been better with 30-40% instead of 50% reducer.

I really appreciate all the comments and I don't mean to act like I'm ignoring the advice, its just this project has been going on probably at least 4 or 5 months now and I've spent thousands on paint so far, so I'm just trying to get some progress going. I have learned a lot though, I guess it's still cheaper than going to body shop school haha.

I think tomorrow I should hopefully be able to wet sand out the run before spraying the base.
 

Attachments

  • IMG20230723011937.jpg
    IMG20230723011937.jpg
    49.8 KB · Views: 137
My Automotive Art supplier sells Kapci. Says it's good stuff (in general). He's a painter/body guy as well and is particular and does very nice work, so I believe him. Doesn't make me want to use any of the products though. SPI reducer is the finest urethane reducer I've ever used.
You would do well to use SPI reducer in SPI products.

BTW your peeling issue is the same as one of the top guys here experienced using Pro-Spray. So it's highly likely that it's an issue with Pro-Spray.
worked at a "resto" shop he had a very cheap budget for materials they had me using kapci base coar reducers and clear. was really user friendly to spray ill say that have no idea of longterm or actual quality of products though. did about 5 jobs with it.
 
So I got the hood painted and so far I haven't noticed any peeling with the Matrix Edge Premium basecoat but then again I haven't really tried to peel it off. When I went to go fix the low areas that I got because I didn't feather and spray another coat of primer like I should of I got it sanded and more primer sprayed and feathered so it was perfectly flat, I then painted over it and attempted to blend it just under the door handles and mirror. I failed miserably though and also I put the clear basecoat/blender/wet bed on way too much and I got a few spots where it wrinkled bad and looks horrible. I also got a little to agressive on the blend line and thought I could do it tighter and I guess I just didn't realize how close I brought my last coat of pearl up to the foam tape edge.

For some reason I can't learn my lesson and I hammer coats on because I get worried I won't get full coverage or I try to cover a defect, in this case I guess I mixed up too much of the clear basecoat/intercoat clear/color blender and I still had a lot after a medium wet coat so I sprayed another coat and I just couldn't bring myself to leave some in the cup and waste it so I sprayed it all out and I guess it was just too much for it. I am pretty sure that's what caused the wrinkling because I remember those spots that wrinkled were the same spots I sprayed out the extra blender I had in the cup. I have had a lot of issues with just going too far and spraying too much and keep getting runs that are completely my fault because I keep over doing it.

I need to figure out now how I am going to fix this, as much as I don't want to spend more on paint, I think I may just need to take the windows and trim out and do all the panels over again. I have successfully blended this paint before with color blender on the tailgate. I had to fix 2 spots of wrinkles and the first time I did it you could see the metallic flakes were oriented differently and it caused the light to shine different angles. After I tied again using the color blender it seems to magically orient the metallic perfectly to match, or just blends it together I guess. I am not sure if I may need more room to try a blend on the line here or not. I sprayed the color blender after my basecoat and before the pearl and I sprayed it everywhere, then I progessively sprayed my midcoat pearl, 4 coats, out farther and farther, I guess I just got too close to the foam tape line on the last coat and I guess I just didn't realize how much paint I was putting down.

Hopefully I can learn my lesson this time.
 

Attachments

  • IMG20230806223848.jpg
    IMG20230806223848.jpg
    69.1 KB · Views: 95
  • IMG20230806223836.jpg
    IMG20230806223836.jpg
    98.3 KB · Views: 106
  • IMG20230806223828.jpg
    IMG20230806223828.jpg
    85.4 KB · Views: 97
  • IMG20230806203826.jpg
    IMG20230806203826.jpg
    97.7 KB · Views: 102
Wrinkling like that is caused by solvents attacking the undercoat whatever that may be in your case. Basecoat/midcoat/blender that isn't activated would be my guess. I'm so confused by what you are doing, how much you are applying and what you are applying that I really can't offer any specific advice.

What I can give you is some generalities. All but the cheapest basecoats will cover in 3 coats. Your coats should be light-medium to at most medium. No need to spray base heavy. Activate your basecoat with 1 ounce of any clear coat activator to per 32 oz ready to spray base. You only need to apply 2 coats of the midcoat. That is all. Spray it the same as your base. Light medium to medium coats. Observe proper flash off times. This is not optional. Read the TDS of the products you are using. Read the SPI Tech Manual for any SPI products you are using.

To fix the wrinkled spots you will need to sand/remove all the wrinkled material and reprime those areas. Ideally with epoxy. If you don't those areas will lift again. If for some reason you are using aerosol primer or a non activated primer for spots. Don't. They will cause wrinkling like that in some cases. Only use epoxy or if you have to, 2K urethane.
 
Outline your procedure for those panels. How many coats? How long between coats? How long before clear? What you posted could also happen if you sprayed additional coats of clear over clear you already sprayed. If it goes out of the re-coat window, for a specific amount of time, it will lift the previous coats. IDK if that is what I'm seeing, but it can happen. Again. Read the TDS of the products you are using. Follow them to the "T". Do not deviate from what the TDS says about, mixing, number of coats, flash off time and recoat time.
 
Outline your procedure for those panels. How many coats? How long between coats? How long before clear? What you posted could also happen if you sprayed additional coats of clear over clear you already sprayed. If it goes out of the re-coat window, for a specific amount of time, it will lift the previous coats. IDK if that is what I'm seeing, but it can happen. Again. Read the TDS of the products you are using. Follow them to the "T". Do not deviate from what the TDS says about, mixing, number of coats, flash off time and recoat time.
Thanks Chris, on the specific panels in the pictures above I think I did 3 coats of base, I think I had probably 98% coverage, but I like to do another coat just in case. Underneath is urethane 2k primer. The basecoat (Matrix Edge EPB) was mixed 1:1 per the Matrix data sheet with 1% of MH-006 Slow Premium Hardener. All coats had 10 min of flash time before next coat per data sheet. I was using TCI Products Slow Universal Reducer UR620 75F+.

Temp was 80F and 70% relative humidity if I remember correctly in my paint booth. A storm had come close by but it never rained, and the clouds and wind help cool things down a lot so I knew I had to take the opportunity to spray with the booth at 80F instead of 120F.

After base I waited another 10 min and sprayed the MPB-500 color blender mixed 1:1 with the same TCI Products reducer and 5% of the MH-006 activator. Now this may have been an issue since the MPB data sheet says to use MX-57, but looking at the Matrix website MX-57 does not exist, so I am not sure if the color blender/wet bed/clear base/intercoat clear should be activated/hardened. It also says: "*NOTE: MX-57 must be used to catalyze entire basecoat film when applied in multi-layer applications (Example: OEM Tri-coat or multi-color)" This would seem like it would apply to my situation so that was the reason I didn't just leave out the MH-006 hardener/activator. I did 2 medium coats of the MPB-500 everywhere all the way up to my foam tape line, and then I had a little left over and didn't want to waste it and sprayed it some more and I think that's what got me as it immediately happened after that.

I gave it another 10 min then sprayed the midcoat pearl (Matrix EPBM) with the same TCI (75F+) slow reducer 1:1 with 1% of the MH-006 hardener/activator. I sprayed 3 coats of the pearl with 10 min between each and then one final light coat at a farther distance and lower pressure because I think that is what you are supposed to do on your last coat to prevent mottling even though I have never had an issue at all with stipes or mottling in my pearl and mettalic. It appears though I made a bad error here and didn't realize how close to the foam tape edge I was spraying the coats though.

After the last dust coat of midcoat pearl, I waited 30 min, and sprayed down DI-20 Glamour Clear Coat mixed 2:1 with DI-06 (Slow) activator. I wanted to use the SPI Euro Clear but the paint store only had normal speed activator for the clear and the Distinctive Image (DI) clear coat was the only one they had that had a slow activator which I was concerned with getting the slowest I could get to prevent dry spray and also that I was spraying in 90F+. I sprayed 3 wet coats of the clear, although the DI website says spray 2 not sure if that's just a recommendation or what but I still had some left over after 2 so I did a 3rd coat.

I think my biggest issue here is that I keep overdoing it and spraying too much, but one thing I can't figure out is blending metallics. Whever you see a video or someone talking about it I always seem to still have some questions. In my case I sprayed the color blender everywhere so I guess that would make it a "wet bed" and not a "color blender", but from my understanding is the wet bed purpose is just to provide extra solvent and material for the metallic flakes to dissolve and flow into so they can orient correctly and not just spray out completely flat. What I have never been able to understand is to me it would seem like it would be 100% impossible to spray midcoat peral/metallic and everytime you sprayed it and every condition you sprayed it, the flakes would somehow dissolve and float around in the solvent and magically adjust themselves to the same exact orientation as the previous paint on the panel, but not sure maybe this is happening?

I understand that you need room (I would guess at least a foot or so in my case) in order to properly blend which would mean you would spray your basecoat to cover just the primer or area you are repairing, then carry your midcoat out a couple inches past the basecoat, then do the next midcoat a couple inches past that, and all while at the same time maybe increasing your spray distance/decreasing pressure each coat. So like I was saying above I had successfully painted the tailgate, had wrinkling in 2 spots about 6in in diameter, then spot sprayed without color blender and got mottling where you could see the different reflection in the metallics, although dead on it looked fine. I then re did the spots but used Speedokote "Color Blender" after my basecoat and before the midcoat pearl in the whole area and blend area and it came out 100% perfect and I was amazed how good it worked. So in the case above maybe I should have used the Speedokote color blender since maybe the Matrix color blender is intended for a different purpose?

All the different terminology and inconsistent labeling and vocabulary across the manufactures can get really confusing, but I believe there is only 2 "blending agents". The first being what I used and its called Color Blender/Intercoat Clear/Blending Additive/etc. and from what I understand it is basically just basecoat without the color pigment. The other product is clear coat blender and it usually is an aerosol and sometimes called "Melting In Agent" and is only used after you have sprayed your base and mid and to blend the clear coat edges and also maybe primer edges that you just sprayed and don't want to have to wet sand to feather-in so you don't get a halo effect or line showing through the basecoat from the primer edge. The melting in agent would have to be used right after you spray in all cases as it appears to just be similar to a slow, slow reducer but in a sprayable can that gives you some extra time to try to get hard edges to flow and melt in some, I am not sure if it could help metallic flakes since by the time you spray it you already have your base and mid and clear coat down and I wouldn't think it could penetrate down below the clear coat to help re-dissolve and flow out some of the metal flakes?

So as long as I can keep my external variables under control (weather, hot temperature, bugs, being OCD and spraying too much and overdoing it, getting the paint store to give me the correct paint that matches, etc.) I think everything is going ok and I seem to have my basic process down. But with this blending metallic thing, I think I am missing some technique. I understand there are more detailed blending strategies and reverse blending and so on, but in my case I am trying to spot paint in areas where I messed something up, so I am spot painting areas that have just been painted within days so they aren't fully cured and I am using the exact same pain to spot paint over them. So color matching shouldn't be an issue at all here. So all I need to do here is get my spot painted area metallic flake orientation to match the existing/surrounding paint.
 
I wish I fully understood what was going on in those pictures. I looks like you are trying to paint a pearl color and soft edge in the middle of the panel? Is this for practice or is this how you want the final product to look. Sorry if it was explained earlier.
 
I'm going to wait for the abridged version, that much reading and I start wanting to get paid for it.
I think and hope the Pro Spray peeling issue was a one off fluke, and I think I have the abilities now to get straight primer and now my efforts are concentrated trying to fix the rest of the defects on the truck I have created and trying to blend those in. And also hopefully learned my lesson with no overspraying things and creating wrinkling and/or runs.

I completely understand if I need to start a new thread though.
 
The photo of the side of the vehicle looks really strange, at our shop only primer would ever look like that, but not really, because we don't spray up to the edge of masking because it will leave a lump or wave. Really don't know what's going on here.
 
I wish I fully understood what was going on in those pictures. I looks like you are trying to paint a pearl color and soft edge in the middle of the panel? Is this for practice or is this how you want the final product to look. Sorry if it was explained earlier.
The reason I am doing this was the bottom half of the doors and some of the quarter panel has very visable low spots in them after I painted the first time. This is because I took the top half down to metal because it was peeling but the bottom half still was intact it seemed, so I left it and just feathered the OEM paint and tried to spot spray epoxy primer. This was a huge mistake and I should have primer and blocked/leveled the whole entire panel not just the spots I took to bare metal.

So I decided to try to just fix the bottom half instead of having to take the door panels/mirror/windows/trim out again and repaint the whole 2 door panels and quarter panel. I figured since it was only about a week ago since I sprayed in the first time that the clear would still be curing and I could just repair the bottom half where the visable low spots were since I figured the new clear coat line would melt in better.

I think I got too agressive and tried to blend too close to the foam tape line, and I definately don't want it to look like that haha. However, as I look at it more closely in the light it seems like I may have done more pearl blend better than I thought since I only lightly brought the last pearl coat up close to the tape line edge. What seemed to have killed me was the fact I sprayed the color blender/clear base MBP-500 way way to close to the tape line and way to thick next to the tape line. You can easily feel the edge with your fingers and it is raised up a lot. I think maybe this is causing the blend line to be a lot more noticable than it should.

Now I am trying to figure out the best way to try to fix this and if I should try to just sand out the line and try to blend in a new larger line or if I should just scrap everything and do all the panels over again. I realize you should have more room that I used to properly blend a pearl metallic, however, I am using the exact same batch of paint and the previous paint is only a week old so I felt I didn't need as much room.
 
The photo of the side of the vehicle looks really strange, at our shop only primer would ever look like that, but not really, because we don't spray up to the edge of masking because it will leave a lump or wave. Really don't know what's going on here.
Yes correct, my brain didn't think about this when I was spraying and I just got the color blender I think way to close and way to thick next to the line. Since I have to sand out the wrinkled spots anyway I think maybe I should just redo the entire panels.
 
At this point you are going to have to paint both doors and the fender completely. No soft edge stuff in the middle of the door. It doesn't work like that. You have to blend the color out into the panel and then clear the entire panel. You cant take the color up to the edge in the middle of a panel like that. You obviously see the effects of that method.
 
At this point you are going to have to paint both doors and the fender completely. No soft edge stuff in the middle of the door. It doesn't work like that. You have to blend the color out into the panel and then clear the entire panel. You cant take the color up to the edge in the middle of a panel like that. You obviously see the effects of that method.
Understood, I figured it was a long shot I was just hoping that since I know the colors are from the same paint batch and can and that the clear wasn't fully cured, I could get away with it. I guess any blends occuring out in the middle of a huge panel would have to have zero imperfections to not be noticeable.

Is there any situation where you can spot paint metallic pearl properly? I have done it on the tailgate and the hood where I had some bugs get in and wrinkles in small 4-5 in spots, it seemed to work as long as I used the speedokote color blender. I also used a detail gun with the volume turned down really low to avoid overspray and get more control.

Now that I realize this, I think I am mistaking the MBP-500 Matrix color blender, I think this product is more of a clear basecoat, while the speedokote color blender I was using before was more of a solvent and lacked the solid content. I was suprised I was able to do as good as I did in blending in the small spots with the detail gun and speedokote blender.
 
If it was brought to me, I would have to sand all of that off and paint the whole side of the cab, which would now include a bed setback to get clear around the cab corner. Without any actual body shop training, the learning curve can be a lot harder. More caution and more questions would serve you well here. I don't know if anyone has done a detailed writeup on basecoat blending, but maybe we should. I volunteer @Chris_Hamilton , haha, just kidding! It's a time investment. Blending pearl can be easier in some ways and harder in others, the hard part can sometimes be fading the ground coat (solid white) out so that the pearl can cover it and make an invisible transition. The easy part is that pearl white in particular has little tendency to orient improperly in a visible way in the blend, it's more forgiving than aluminum metallic in that way.
 
If it was brought to me, I would have to sand all of that off and paint the whole side of the cab, which would now include a bed setback to get clear around the cab corner. Without any actual body shop training, the learning curve can be a lot harder. More caution and more questions would serve you well here. I don't know if anyone has done a detailed writeup on basecoat blending, but maybe we should. I volunteer @Chris_Hamilton , haha, just kidding! It's a time investment. Blending pearl can be easier in some ways and harder in others, the hard part can sometimes be fading the ground coat (solid white) out so that the pearl can cover it and make an invisible transition. The easy part is that pearl white in particular has little tendency to orient improperly in a visible way in the blend, it's more forgiving than aluminum metallic in that way.
When you talk about the hardest part trying to fade out the groundcoat and then having the pearl properly overlap and cover it all the way, looks like you are talking about the picture I attatched below? You can see sputters of the white basecoat blotched all over the pearl.

This was one of my first attempts at a blend, and one of the problems I think here was maybe that I needed to have better trigger control of my gun and keep the trigger pressed the whole time so there is always air coming out and then press it back farther when I need paint, I have heard this can cause spitting and sputtering if you let all the way off while spraying. Either way I think the main issue was like you are saying you have to bring your pearl out far enough to cover your base, but then again I think the pearl is going to have a good amount of translucense to it to where it will be difficult to cover a new different basecolor with it.

Also the picture I attached is me trying to blend into the OEM paint on the bed, that was 6 months ago and I haven't messed with the bed since and my efforts have all been at the front. The blends I am trying to do now are with the exact same mix and batch of paint so I woudln't think color would be an issue, however, I think it still needs a blend due to the metallics laying differently?
 

Attachments

  • IMG20230326212846.jpg
    IMG20230326212846.jpg
    102.5 KB · Views: 87
We're talking about pearls here, they're made of mica. And yes, I think I see sputtered ground coat there, that's a defective spray technique. Droplet size should be very small, and the last coat may need to be mixed with some transparent basecoat from the same system in order to give it some translucency and allow it to fade into the existing finish. The midcoat containing the pearl is then sprayed out over the ground coat, a tiny bit further each time, until the ground coat transition is no longer visible. If done right, this pearl step will cover the midcoat in 2-3 coats, if done wrong, it will never cover.

In NO instance should this repair be done with ANY masking on the panels that are being painted. Panels should be de-trimmed as much as possible (door handles, belt moldings, etc.), sanded, cleaned and masked as if ready for being completely painted before any basecoat is sprayed. Typically in a repair blend situation, sealer is not used. Blending using sealer is a more advanced technique and probably should be avoided, instead simply spray over properly prepared primer if at all possible.

Pearl blends need at least 12-18" away from the edge of the repaired area to the next panel to be sure of success. Each coat goes a couple of inches past the last one. 5-6 coats would be fairly typical for a pearl blend, counting the ground and midcoat. This is why it's important to use a similar colored primer, to minimize coats of ground coat needed to achieve coverage.

In your case, you need to paint your cab corner now as well as the rest of the cab and fender, and usually the radius on the cab and the gap between the cab and bed are enough to trick the eye into thinking the finish is a match, with luck.

Actually, some of what I wrote here doesn't apply to you anymore, since you are essentially doing a complete refinish of the side minus the bed. The only place you don't want to put paint is at the top of the fender, but you might as well cover it all at this point.
 
Wow I was so confused. The first time I looked at this quick I thought I was seeing shadows or reflections on the side of the truck. Now I realized you just boxed it all in with soft foam tape. That was def your first mistake. Unfortunately it doesnt work like that. As stated, esp now, you gotta completely de trim these panels and sand all that shit off there. You can blend your base out in panels with ample room but you must clear the entire panel. There’s scenarios where you can melt in a clear blend but it will never last long term and only works in certain spots and/or situations. This is def not one esp for someone who doesn’t have a lot of experience. I’d be refinishing the whole side at this point.
 
Back
Top