Sealer Adhesion Problems

At this point to refinish the entire 2 doors and the front quarter panel I guess isn't going to be quite as bad since everything is completely flat minus the wrinkled areas of course. So I guess I am safe from more wrinkles as long as I reprime the sanded areas were the wrinkles were with a 2k primer? Would a urethane be sufficient or does a urethane then epoxy (sprayed as a sealer since you can't sand epoxy good) need to be sprayed just over the wrinkled areas to ensure they are sealed off and protected from basecoat solvent attacking them again?

Also some areas are approaching 17 mils and most areas are in the 10-15 mil range, apparently you aren't supposed to paint over about 12 mils, is that true?

Also is it possible that I won't have to use so much basecoat for coverage since I am painting over already good paint, in most areas at least? I check for coverage while spraying with my light but then I think I start second guessing myself and my eyes start to trick me maybe because its reflecting so much light back in my face and I start seeing spots that make me think I haven't gotten full coverage yet.

Unfortunately with just one mistake it costs a weeks' worth of effort and $200 in paint and materials.
 
I already told you what I would do, sand it all off and start over. But you seemingly want to continue to risk compounding your problems. At the very least, the masked up areas will need to be feathered back so abrupt ridges aren't visible. You have a lot of reversible material on there, and probably some trapped solvents, too.
 
@600_F
First thing to say is bravo for trying this. It's not easy as you have found out but got to give you credit for trying.
I'll try to quickly give you some guidance. Not knowing what exactly you have going on, (what you have sprayed, or sprayed over, or if you did edge blends etc) you need to get out the DA and sand very very well. Ideally get nearly everything that you have done off. Wrinkling/lifting is not normal and since you are getting it in places, then best practice is to remove it. Trust us on this. If you continue trying to do what you are doing it will just be more problems. Use 180 on the DA to remove everything.

Sand it all off (what you have sprayed). Once you do that, use epoxy not 2K to seal and lockdown the area. This doesn't mean use epoxy as a sealer, meaning reduced. Shoot the epoxy unreduced, full strength. Two coats. After 24 hours, you can spray 2 or 3 coats of 2K Urethane and then block the area down to eliminate any waves created when using the DA. After you have it sanded, prep the whole side and spray the whole side. Remove as much of the trim as you can.

Process to do that is to seal it with one coat of either epoxy mixed as a sealer (ideal) or 2K Urethane sealer. Do not use 2K primer if the TDS does not say it can be used as a sealer. Seal it, then three coats of base, then two coats of midcoat. Finish with at least three coats of clear.
 
I cannot emphasize enough that you need to get everything that you have sprayed off of the truck. If you don't you it will be similar to a circular firing squad. You will continue to chase your tail trying to fix these flare ups. Save time and money by taking our advice.
 
Understood, and by all the way off you mean to bare metal right? I would think 180 on a DA would take forever, especially since I have a thick epoxy layer on top of the bare metal and I would think I would have to use a fiber resin disk on a rotary, that is how I took it down to bare metal the first time.

You also said 2 coats of midcoat, I have been spraying 3 coats plus a 4th reduced pressure drop coat, the reason why is back when I was trying to match paint to the OEM color and it was also back before I knew the extent of the OEM peeling paint. After doing spray out cards and experimenting with 2-5 coats of pearl and trying 4 different brands of paint and 3 different paint shops I could never match the OEM paint, so I already had the hood painted with my final Matrix premium brand at 3 coats + dust coat, so I was just trying to stay consistent for a match between panels. With that said though I completely agree with you after spraying out all those paint on spray out cards with 0 to 6 coats of pearl, after the 2nd coat of pearl it looks 99.9% the same. I think I chased trying to get the correct coats of pearl when my paint wasn't matching because the color was off but I kept hearing that I needed to try up to 5 coats of pearl since I seemed to be missing that off-white almond/pink eraser color to match the OEM paint.

And thanks for the help, I can't say I didn't expect this to happen trying to teach myself and honestly 95% of it seems to be not near as hard as I though. The hardest part for me is the logistical part, like when a thunderstorm comes, and I have no glass with masking paper in place and a garage not big enough to park under and having to put up and take down my blow up paint booth before the HOA fines me haha. I think in material costs I have way surpassed what it would have cost to strip the whole truck down and repaint as a painter I knew told me it would be at least 4k and that's if it had good paint not peeling paint. But to me it's still worth it as I feel I have the confidence now for the next job.
 
At the minimum, all basecoat needs to be removed. Not necessarily to metal. Depending on number of coats, stripping may or may not be more efficient at this point. With the equipment we have available at our shop, stripping might be fastest. In your situation, trying to remove the basecoat is probably the best bet.
 
I went out today to start to get the ugly/nasty wrinkle sanded out and I noticed it peeled off easily, so I grabbed my razor blade, which by the way I removed almost all of the OEM paint with a razor blade since it just peeled off like the adhesive cover on a sticker, and understandably there was zero adhesion on the side of the panel I tried to refinish. But there was also zero adhesion on the other side, but interestingly enough the zero adhesion on the top side appeared to be the midcoat pearl. I would assume the clear coat had adhesion to the pearl, but obviously the pearl had zero adhesion to the basecoat. Luckily though the basecoat had adhesion to the 2k urethane primer, but only on the top side of the panel, below the basecoat had zero adhesion.

One thing I am curious though which you never see stated is there any evaporation time window that you must wait before painting after applying wax and grease remover or water based cleaner, or water after wet sanding or cleaning sanding dust off? I will say whenever I peel paint I do smell a faint solvent smell, but its a basecoat solvent smell not a hydrocarbon like wax and grease remover/paint thinner/naptha smell. But then again I also smelled a basecoat solvent smell peeling off the original OEM peeling paint which you would think would find its way out from under the paint after 10+ years but maybe not. So I realize the importance of flash times and I do respect them.

All the industry magazine articles and auto body text books seem to all indicate that the only reason why there would be poor adhesion is because of 2 things, contamination and/or lack of sanding which it seems they hint at is because of lazyniess and get it in and out quick body shops.

I am tempted to go find a small area and try to peel up all the other paint I have layed down, but then again I kind of don't want to know my fate haha. I guess since its peeling off so easy I will continue with a razor just be careful to not gouge it if I can help it, then start sanding.
 

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well you have already stated that you sprayed it very heavy. you most likely dont have adhesion because you have a load of trapped solvents in the paint film.
 
Jim C said:
well you have already stated that you sprayed it very heavy. you most likely dont have adhesion because you have a load of trapped solvents in the paint film.
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Yes, I agree here. It seems like even if you don't overspray enough to cause the paint to start wrinkling (because you sprayed a coat of base with powerful solvents on too thick) it still seems like it can be enough thickness and over spraying to cause a loss of adhesion, and eventually if you keep spraying, you get so much solvent it just completely saturates it and forces the paint to wrinkle. I would guess too that the problem may not actually be that the solvents are present or not it's just that when its sprayed too thick it takes more time to properly flash which would then cause the solvents to get trapped and never leave and it definitely makes sense if things stay in a dissolved state they can never chemically cure. And that would explain why most data sheets say you have to allow for more flash time when spraying more than the recommended number of coats.

With that said, and with a few exceptions like when I was being OCD about wasting paint and just had to finish the extra paint in the cup instead of throwing it away, I feel like I haven't been spraying that thick, although I may have put more coats than recommended, but that was only because I wasn't getting full coverage and could see through to the primer, but then again, maybe I was getting full coverage and maybe the paint (especially the white basecoat) reflects a lot of light back at you which then causes you to see spots.

One thing that's certain here is primer or clear coat and anything that is 2k doesn't have issues it just adheres, anything that is 1k and is a basecoat or the clear base or midcoat causes issues and doesn't adhere. I would also assume since basecoat is just 1k, it is fully dependent on solvent evaporation to do its just so therefore, it must have a lot more powerful solvents than 2k primers and clear coat that require an irreversible mixing with a catalyst to do their job. So like you said these powerful solvents are not your friend and are more of a necessary evil I guess. This also explains why base and midcoat is so enormously expensive because of these powerful solvents and I'm sure EPA regulations make them even extra more expensive.

I find it difficult to really see how much I am spraying and be able to tell while I'm spraying how much coverage I have, and I would think a lot of that is just due to the color I am painting, which could also be even more difficult to tell when I am spraying over sanded clear coat of the same exact basecoat color.

In this instance, because I was scared of wrinkles, I turned the fluid volume was down when spraying the first coat of base, then turned it back to the normal full open on the next coat. When you see most people spray it seems they leave it at full open fluid volume, the adjust with sideways gun speed and/or slight adjustments to spraying distance. I know I do get a lot of runs, and not just clear coat runs, I get basecoat runs, which again probably proves I am spraying way too much and I guess I never just realized it and I always thought my runs were just do to the high temperature I was spraying it (summer heat and sun in a blow up bounce house paint booth is extremely hot, sometimes over 100F).

This also explains why I have gone through so much (probably over $1500 in base and midcoat already) and still haven't gotten to the bed yet.
 
you should never be anywhere close to ever running basecoat. basecoat is not sprayed that way. you never try to get base to flow out and look good like clear or even primer. it should never be sprayed slick. light to medium coats and once the base is all on then let it sit overnight to flash off then clear the next day
 
Three to four light to medium at most coats of base over epoxy sealer you will never have to worry about adhesion. None of us worry about adhesion issues because we don't have them. You adhesion issues are the result of how you are spraying. Heavy coats of base trap solvents. Heavy coat after heavy coat then clear and the solvents trapped in the base will lift. Or not adhere correctly to the substrate. Put all the stuff you think you know out of your head. Follow our advice that we have given you in this thread and the TDS of the brand of base you are using. If you do you will have success.
This OCD nonsense makes no sense to me. Once you have it covered it's covered. Save the rest for later if you need to repair something else. Millage matters and applying coat after coat when it's not necessary contributes to your issues. Stop thinking you know what to do. Follow our advice and you will have success.
 
Chris_Hamilton said:
Three to four light to medium at most coats of base over epoxy sealer you will never have to worry about adhesion. None of us worry about adhesion issues because we don't have them. You adhesion issues are the result of how you are spraying. Heavy coats of base trap solvents. Heavy coat after heavy coat then clear and the solvents trapped in the base will lift. Or not adhere correctly to the substrate. Put all the stuff you think you know out of your head. Follow our advice that we have given you in this thread and the TDS of the brand of base you are using. If you do you will have success.
This OCD nonsense makes no sense to me. Once you have it covered it's covered. Save the rest for later if you need to repair something else. Millage matters and applying coat after coat when it's not necessary contributes to your issues. Stop thinking you know what to do. Follow our advice and you will have success.
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Thanks for the help. And I apologize I didn't intend to come across like I already knew what to do, I was just trying to get detail across and try to reason what was going on. I think when you do something new you're not used to you can get caught up in concentrating on too much on things that don't matter while the one thing that does you don't notice. Especially with painting since there 90% prep work then it comes down to that 10% left when you have to put the paint down and you feel like there are a million variables that have to all align perfectly at once.

I think I'm going to have to accept that I won't get 100% perfect paint job and I will need to decide on what's good enough to be realistic.
 
600_F said:
Yes, I agree here. It seems like even if you don't overspray enough to cause the paint to start wrinkling (because you sprayed a coat of base with powerful solvents on too thick) it still seems like it can be enough thickness and over spraying to cause a loss of adhesion, and eventually if you keep spraying, you get so much solvent it just completely saturates it and forces the paint to wrinkle. I would guess too that the problem may not actually be that the solvents are present or not it's just that when its sprayed too thick it takes more time to properly flash which would then cause the solvents to get trapped and never leave and it definitely makes sense if things stay in a dissolved state they can never chemically cure. And that would explain why most data sheets say you have to allow for more flash time when spraying more than the recommended number of coats.

With that said, and with a few exceptions like when I was being OCD about wasting paint and just had to finish the extra paint in the cup instead of throwing it away, I feel like I haven't been spraying that thick, although I may have put more coats than recommended, but that was only because I wasn't getting full coverage and could see through to the primer, but then again, maybe I was getting full coverage and maybe the paint (especially the white basecoat) reflects a lot of light back at you which then causes you to see spots.

One thing that's certain here is primer or clear coat and anything that is 2k doesn't have issues it just adheres, anything that is 1k and is a basecoat or the clear base or midcoat causes issues and doesn't adhere. I would also assume since basecoat is just 1k, it is fully dependent on solvent evaporation to do its just so therefore, it must have a lot more powerful solvents than 2k primers and clear coat that require an irreversible mixing with a catalyst to do their job. So like you said these powerful solvents are not your friend and are more of a necessary evil I guess. This also explains why base and midcoat is so enormously expensive because of these powerful solvents and I'm sure EPA regulations make them even extra more expensive.

I find it difficult to really see how much I am spraying and be able to tell while I'm spraying how much coverage I have, and I would think a lot of that is just due to the color I am painting, which could also be even more difficult to tell when I am spraying over sanded clear coat of the same exact basecoat color.

In this instance, because I was scared of wrinkles, I turned the fluid volume was down when spraying the first coat of base, then turned it back to the normal full open on the next coat. When you see most people spray it seems they leave it at full open fluid volume, the adjust with sideways gun speed and/or slight adjustments to spraying distance. I know I do get a lot of runs, and not just clear coat runs, I get basecoat runs, which again probably proves I am spraying way too much and I guess I never just realized it and I always thought my runs were just do to the high temperature I was spraying it (summer heat and sun in a blow up bounce house paint booth is extremely hot, sometimes over 100F).

This also explains why I have gone through so much (probably over $1500 in base and midcoat already) and still haven't gotten to the bed yet.
Click to expand...
Huh?
 
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