Before I heard of SPI, I went to a vintage car restoration shop and asked about protecting the bare metal on my car that had surface rust and very tiny pits - no rust through of flaking. He said they use PIKLEX 20 then epoxy primer then 2k to block before BC/CC. SO I did that. I found a few very low spots after lightly blocking the epoxy and applied a skim coat of filler. In searching the entire car for low spots I burned through to bare metal and will apply another coat or two of epoxy before priming with 2K to block. I then found info on SPI and ordered a gallon of the turbo 2K primer. My concern should be obvious after reading Barry's directions on the "perfect paint job"---did I really mess up applying the PICKLEX 20 ? The PICKLEX 20 people said it will not cause delamination and they have no reports of any issues with any paints. Advice?
PICKLEX 20 under epoxy primer??
- Thread starter Skycab
- Start date
Not the first spray but now I have a gallon of the SPI turbo primer and before I spray THAT I want to make sure I'm not throwing hundreds of dollars down the drain. I guess I should call SPI Monday morning.
Chris_Hamilton
Trying to be the best me, I can be
SPI advises their only approved metal treatment is Ospho, and only with correct usage. I.E. neutralizing it prior to application of epoxy. There is some info on picklex here when doing a search. Somewhat conflicting though. I would advise you contact Barry via the Tech Line and ask his advice.
Trash the spi or trash the picklex, your choice, or don't call the tech line when the paint comes off.
Call any major paint company and see if ok
To use with their products.
No paint likes an acid film that is not neutralized.
Edit:
The reason to read carefully what I said is it is a whole lot cheaper to pitch one of the products now than to redo a paint job that you have 3000 dollars of material in plus unknown hours of labor.
Call any major paint company and ask first before using with their system.
Edit:
To add to what Chris said, we do approve of the major paint companies' acid systems if you follow instructions they over-neutralize it and of course that is perfect.
Call any major paint company and see if ok
To use with their products.
No paint likes an acid film that is not neutralized.
Edit:
The reason to read carefully what I said is it is a whole lot cheaper to pitch one of the products now than to redo a paint job that you have 3000 dollars of material in plus unknown hours of labor.
Call any major paint company and ask first before using with their system.
Edit:
To add to what Chris said, we do approve of the major paint companies' acid systems if you follow instructions they over-neutralize it and of course that is perfect.
Last edited:
I did call PPG and they said they don't endorse the use of this product but they see no reason it will cause any issues with their products. I called 2 Glasurit distributors and they too said they don't recommend any such product but don't have any info whether it has or will affect the paint down the road. So all that being said, it sounds like you recommend stripping the car down to bare metal again and somehow removing the product? If you have any idea what these cars (XK120's) look like, then you know what I'm up against doing that. I certainly am willing to do it but I don't know how to make sure the product is removed. Then I assume I use the SPI epoxy primer, then the 2K, etc? Thanks for your advice and I will follow it.
Jim C
Oldtimer
acids tend to leave an invisible film behind which is why the metal does not rust. If the acid is not neutralized or rinsed off completely then your epoxy is bonded to this film, not the metal. Imagine waxing the bare metal before epoxy. Also an invisible film and the epoxy will peel off. I want my epoxy bonded directly to the metal.
Yeah, I get that. So NOW, I guess I have to sand the car back to bare metal, including the skim coats of filler on the low spots, and somehow remove the Picklex stuff. Problem is, the reason I went with the picklex is because the car had sat for 50 years in a dry barn and light surface rust was peeking through the tops of the from fenders. The surface rust had really tiny pits, no rust throughs or flaking. So after searching for all kinds of remedies, I talked to a restoration shop with really good reviews and they turned me on to the picklex. What a friggin mess I got myself into.
Treeslayer
Mike
thats a really good way to put it. wish i was handy with wording like that lol.
This is the response I got when I sent the Picklex guy my concerns...
Kevin,
Whoever told you those things, may be true for the traditional method of surface preparation. They do not know about Picklex® 20. They just said what they are used to. In traditional process, a Self etching Primer is used for better bonding, but Picklex® 20 provides much better adhesion, even on edges and corners, where usually the paint fails after few weeks in the traditional process.
Picklex® 20 has been used in Car restoration since 1998 without any problem. In fact, the restorers achieved double Paint life compared to traditional process. The TV show called “TRUCKS”, which is a Car Restoration show, used Picklex® 20 for more than 15 years. The website www.picklex20.com (go to Home Page at the bottom, there are two videos, one is the last part of the actual show and the other is the Video Testimonial from the TV show Host Kevin Tetz).
Picklex® 20 is a Nano Conversion coating like Iron or Zinc phosphate, but it performs multiple jobs of Complete Surface preparation & Pre-treatment (conversion coating) in One Step. Picklex® 20 is the only Conversion coating in the market, which performs the Complete metal surface preparation in One Step without heating or rinsing.
Picklex® 20 has been used by a lot of companies including a lot of Major companies since 1998 with Zero Welding and Paint Adhesion failure. Zero Re-work.
I have attached the typical Adhesion test (Cross hatch Test) for Picklex® 20, showing flawless bonding with the top coating. Also, I have attached the Test Report of a Paint job on Hot Rolled steel with mill scale (without removing the mill scale), which passed 1000 hours of Salt Spray test (ASTM B117), using Two part Epoxy Primer and a Paint, which is close to double than the company specification (large Metal fabricators and Industrial Construction companies). Just imagine, the same paint job will go much higher salt spray test (much longer Paint life) on a bare metal surface.
If you are not familiar with Salt Spray Test, you can share the test report to a knowledgeable Technical person, who is familiar with metal surface preparation before Painting and the Corrosion resistance (Salt spray test which relates to Paint Life). Also, you can share this information to your fellow Car restorers, who might have questions about Picklex® 20.
You just perform according to the Instruction for Picklex® 20. Even if the coating is smooth, it is Rust free (stops the Oxidation process), in which case the adhesion will be real good without making the surface rough (as done in traditional process). This process is done in for surface preparation in a Vacuum chamber without sanding the coating (by NASA or companies who wants optimum result). Picklex® 20 gives the same effect. Do not sand the coating, because it will remove the coating and it defeats the purpose of using it. Apply Body filler over primer after sanding for good bonding. Do not use Self Etching primer.
Also, you can apply Picklex® 20 to the parts which will get hot during operation and uses High temperature Paint such as, Radiator, Engine, exhaust pipe etc. Also, inside Gas Tank for Rust protection (Humidity will not have any effect on the coating).
Please let me know if you have any question.
Regards,
Ranjit Sen
President/CEO
National Award winner 2001 (USA)
Edison Award winner 2013 (Global)
International Chemical Products, Inc.
Huntsville, AL, USA
email: rsen@icpi.net
ph/fax: 256.650.0088
Cell: 256-714-1800
Chris_Hamilton
Trying to be the best me, I can be
Good question to ask Ranjit is will he guarantee in writing that if the epoxy and paint fails due to picklex being used on the metal, will he pay for your labor and materials to redo the job? I think we all know the answer to that.
That response sounds like a commercial. Referencing TV shows and TV show hosts whose entire 30 or 60 minute programs are nothing but commercials for whatever products they showcase that week does not impress me either. Actually the complete opposite. Making broad sweeping claims but then having no real way to back them up does not impress me.
Notice too that he has no reference to actual cars done and tested using this system. If I was the manufacturer of this product which is geared to the Resto market and it works like he says it does, first thing I would do is have several cars done using the product and do destructive testing on panels using the product and automotive refinish products like epoxy. That would go a long way to proving it works and doesn't affect the bond of epoxy. Lot farther than some TV shill giving his "testimonial".
Barry has said those salt spray tests can be manipulated to give whatever result you want. I put no faith in that.
Notice how the reference using hot rolled (mill scale) steel as opposed to using cold rolled which is what every car is made of.
And in the end what matters more is what the manufacturer of the product going over it says. They know what works and does not work with their products. Not what the manufacturer of the product treating the metal says.
Last edited:
Jim C
Oldtimer
Anything i have used that leaves zinc phosphate coating the epoxy adhesion is compromised. The zinc is not bonded to steel like the epoxy is. With that said, he is right and i have not used picklex so maybe my experience does not apply to that product. Maybe picklex is different in some way. I have no idea but from what he said, i dont see it. Seems the same as any other acid/ zinc metal prep which is a known no no for any automotive primer. Only metal pretreatment i have found that really works is the stuff from henkle which is supplied in cloth wipe form through akzo nobel. Their metal pretreatment wipes. I have tested. They work and adhesion is fantastic. No zinc that i know of in it.
Well, therein lies the dilemma, what do I do?! Strip the car back to bare metal and THEN how do I ensure this product is removed? I have NO experience with this kind of stuff. I've painted a couple of vintage cars in the past but none that need metal treatment. The ONLY reason I went with this was because the reputable restoration shop I visited gave me a tour, showed me how they strip, paint a classic car and explained they used Picklex saying that in over 15 years and dozens of cars it was used on, no issues. They gave me several other shops that use it in addition to other products to get their opinions. I am totally lost on what to do. I have sanded the car with 180 because i'm way out of the 7 day window and have skim coated a few ares of low spots. There are numerous bare spots from the sanding and I bought a gallon of SPI turbo epoxy primer to start the block sanding process then learned of what "Barry" from SPI says about using ANY product under their paints. Can I and WILL I sand the car back to bare metal, yes. But then what do I do to make sure the stuff is gone? Makes me wish I never got the car.
First, yes, we all know hat ANYONE would say to the question of if the paint fails will they pay for it. Of course NO ONE would do it because there is no way for them to know if the bare metal was properly repaired and their product was applied according to their instructions. That would be an ambulance chasers dream lawsuit. I absolutely agree with you on the infomercials, especially Eastwood! I laugh at their ridiculous hawking of everything Eastwood. It's just insane. I guess I'm just screwed. I did it to myself so I can't blame anyone but me. I just don't know how to fix it. Had I done a little more research into epoxy primer products I would have seen the SPI info and taken Barry's advice! Looks like a very, VERY expensive mistake. Thanks for the input.
Only problem is they are very expensive.
Chris_Hamilton
Trying to be the best me, I can be
Only ways I know of are either media blasting or neutralizing the product. In your case one way that would work (don't know how practical it would be for you) is to strip the car then apply Ospho to the panels. Keep it wet with the product (don't let it dry) for 10 minutes then rinse well. That would remove and neutralize anything left on the car after stripping.
Other thoughts would be to use a paint stripper disc and strip the car. Possibly that would also remove the picklex but whether it would in all the minute pores of the metal, IDK. Would be more effective than sandpaper as it would reach "deeper" so to speak.
If you are hesitant to do anything, I would first do a test on the car by sanding an area to metal and see how the material on the car feathers out. Especially the epoxy to metal. Run your fingernail over the feather edge to the metal and see if you can scratch it off. If you can then yes definitely you need to remove everything. If it feathers out (no tearing) and you can't scratch any material off at the featheredge where the metal and material meet then you might be okay. The bond doesn't start out strong then weaken over time. It would be weak from the start so if the featheredge test looks good, again it might be okay.
I hesitate to speak in absolutes as this is all just an educated guess. If it does seem good then use the manufacturers epoxy that you originally used as opposed to SPI's. Then use the 2K over that. Don't re-coat the bare metal areas with only 2K urethane primer.
acid film and epoxy does not work well. I had a truck I stripped the paint to bare metal with an da sander and 80 grit . Was properly cleaned then .epoxy and body worked didn’t have any issue till about 8 months later. started getting blisters after it was painted. thought maybe contamination. Was going to spot fix it till I set it in the sun and got a very large bubble. Cut it open went straight to metal. So re stripped it epoxied it and body worked could scrape it right if the panel. Was all done when it was well above 70 degrees and proper flash times. Only thing we could come up with was an acid film on the panel., wasn’t going to gamble with ospho and missing a spot. I blasted it to take care of the issue prepped with 80 on a da and never had issues again. So I wouldn’t trust any kind of acid product on the panel after that job I came with a whole new standard sop for epoxy and metal prep For my shop. I strip panels lightly blast clean very thoroughly with spi waterborne and solvent then 80 grit on a da very thoroughly then clean again let flash for Atleast and hour then epoxy and start my bodywork in 48 hours. Lost a lot of money in materials and labor it’s not worth the gamble in my opinion.
Jim C
Oldtimer
i have never bought them but they are available under the wanda label as well. i cant imagine the wanda ones being too terrible but god only knows now days. everything seems to be through the roof. what i have here is an actual gallon of the liquid that is in the wipes which was given to me by my sikkens rep friend while it was in testing. i have posted this stuff on here before. i believe its bonderite 1455 but i cant remember if thats the # for sure.
Thanks and I just got off the phone with Barry who basically told me the same thing except for the scratch test. He said to sand the entire car back to bare metal with 80 grit, then treat with the OSPHO as you said, then use the epoxy primer I already have, then do the filler work (AGAIN) then use the epoxy 2K I just got from SPI. Holy SH*T Batman, this is ugly!! At least I know what I'll be doing the rest of the week. Barry could not have been more helpful and it's very obvious he knows his stuff so back to the beginning I go. Thank God I'm only out a few hundred bucks at this point. Thanks for the help and I'll be spreading the word to buy and support SPI products.