majors' waterborne faq

some of us have been around long enough to know better than believe bullshit put out by the majors or the google warriors with their cut and paste. water crap has been around since the 70's. every time the whiny ass tree huggers in cal try to push it on us it fails miserably and cost folks money to clean up after. and as long as solvent base is made i will use it. even if i have to have it shipped.
 
There are pros and cons to both systems, SPI down the road will have a low voc version and after that perhaps a waterborne system as a second, only to give the majors a taste of their own medicine, (maybe) what I don't like is people taking advertising or a salesman opinion usually uninformed and posting it as Gospel.

Just so happens a few of the SPI reds were not 4.4 or 3.5 but 2.1 voc, that some of you sprayed a while back, could not tell the difference? I had no complaints.
I have a picture on my wall from a shop that probably shot more SPI Red then anyone and his truck is 2:1, NEVER NOTICED A DIFFERENCE.

Like the reds are more brilliant, BS it is measurable but you can put what you want in an ad.
 
these guys know how to market and know how to make money, thats all it is. with the possibility to make solvent compliant bases, as barry mentioned, they are looking at more money. best way is to introduce a new system that cost less for them and the savings to the shop isn't that much more. they are trying to make a better profit with this new system..i assume that spi is making a good profit and we all know what spi prices are...and the majors are double or more than double. im not being anti-business..these companies are just anti-consumer at the moment..and lets not forgot what type of grants and exemptions they get from the government for this green movement.

these companies are reporting decent increases in profits, and are still increasing the prices 4-5% at a time.
 
shine;7345 said:
some of us have been around long enough to know better than believe bullshit put out by the majors or the google warriors with their cut and paste. water crap has been around since the 70's. every time the whiny ass tree huggers in cal try to push it on us it fails miserably and cost folks money to clean up after. and as long as solvent base is made i will use it. even if i have to have it shipped.
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u calling me google poster?
 
any large corporation works on a budget. if the budget is not spent it is cut the next year. so they are going to constantly r&d new products. doesn't matter if it succeeds or fails . that is shareholders problem. over the years i have seen countless new and improved products that disappeared a year or two later.
 
How many of you actually have any time behind the trigger with waterborne basecoats besides Sik?

I have sprayed water for 2 1/2 years and have to say it works a hell of a lot better than solvent. It's faster, blends easier, better metallic control, can't lift or ring out and flat out works better. If you have to repair fresh clear it is a cake walk as it doesnt lift. It isn't any more expensive either. We actually save a little bit of money with it.

Given the choice I would never go back to solvent. Every other painter I know using water says the same thing.
 
ryanbrown999;7391 said:
How many of you actually have any time behind the trigger with waterborne basecoats besides Sik?

I have sprayed water for 2 1/2 years and have to say it works a hell of a lot better than solvent. It's faster, blends easier, better metallic control, can't lift or ring out and flat out works better. If you have to repair fresh clear it is a cake walk as it doesnt lift. It isn't any more expensive either. We actually save a little bit of money with it.

Given the choice I would never go back to solvent. Every other painter I know using water says the same thing.
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fuckin finally... jesus.. lol

theyll learn one day ryan..
 
sik_kreations;7425 said:
fuckin finally... jesus.. lol

theyll learn one day ryan..
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So.... you're posting on this site because you want SPI to sell waterborne basecoats? Last time I checked there's only a red basecoat offered and it isn't waterborne. Should we be expecting waterborne epoxy primer and clearcoat? What about striping paint. Are you doing all your airbrush work with waterborne?

There must be a better site to have a pis.. er.. waterbirthing contest.

I am trying to bring a 29-year long project to a reasonable conclusion. I gave up the idea of black lacquer several years ago and am on board with mixing stuff 1:1 and adding a little reducer. You have a snowball's chance in South Florida of getting me to change to waterborne. Only change I'd consider is my basecoat color. If SPI doesn't offer black pretty soon, I'm going to have another red Corvette.
 
Bob Heine;7434 said:
So.... you're posting on this site because you want SPI to sell waterborne basecoats? Last time I checked there's only a red basecoat offered and it isn't waterborne. Should we be expecting waterborne epoxy primer and clearcoat? What about striping paint. Are you doing all your airbrush work with waterborne?

There must be a better site to have a pis.. er.. waterbirthing contest.

I am trying to bring a 29-year long project to a reasonable conclusion. I gave up the idea of black lacquer several years ago and am on board with mixing stuff 1:1 and adding a little reducer. You have a snowball's chance in South Florida of getting me to change to waterborne. Only change I'd consider is my basecoat color. If SPI doesn't offer black pretty soon, I'm going to have another red Corvette.
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im not trying to tell people to switch.. im just warning that the time that solvent base comming to an end is inching closer and closer.. and eventually some kind of switch will be made.. getting used to it now will be alot better when u have no choice to change.. i use both water and solvent and am doing just fine. alot of people in cali thought that it wasnt guna happen blah blah blah.. and when it did.. it sent alot of people scrambling.
 
(just read whole thread). lol Oh I missed you guys. lol Never dull.

Really, I think one only has to follow the money to see what the original intent is here.
Look at the story on CFC's. Its now been proven that it had no effect on the ozone. And oddly enough, its patents were due to expire right near the time it was outlawed, and a 'safer' alternative was introduced (a 'safer' PATENTED ;) alternative).

Tactics like that are used all the time. Take something (a chemical or substance) that has a virtual monopoly on its use, and ban it. BOOM, if you have the resources to offer an alternative, you have HUGE profit potential.

After all, if your chained to a wall, and havent had a drink of anything for 5 days, and someone hands you a glass of piss, you'll probably consider drinking it.

All that being said, the long term money cant be best guaranteed with an inferior product (excluding the intervention of legislation). So waterborne must make great strides, and some would say it has.

We have all worked some place where a new guy comes in, and makes a change or changes. Almost always, some will not like those changes and subtly create problems and obstacles that would normally not be there, thus creating the illusion that this 'new guy is an idiot and dont know what he's talking about'.
I have no doubt that happens in shops taking on waterborne for the first times.

And since I spray waterborne every day, I can also see why a shop in Arizona might love it, while a shop in Michigan might hate it. Humidity.
And if its rainin outside while your sprayin, you might aswell go make a sandwich between coats.

By the very fact that so many resist waterborne, and that companies like Barrys keep making impeccable paints, only forces waterborne to get that much better to compete (accept where forced by legislation).

The best thing we can do is use what works best for each of us. The bad part is all the inflated, embellished, and incorrect stories, or sales rep jibberish as Barry mentioned thats passed on as gospel.

We shouldnt be fighting each other over which is better. Instead, we should be fighting government intervention. The fastest way to fuck something up and make it worthless is let the government control it.

At the end of the day, I will be putting solventborne on my stuff.
 
You are a 100% right, it is all about the money.

I will never forget at a meeting about two years ago, when a very high up from a major said to me, waterbourn will put you guys out of business, that is the real reason we push it, not because of the profit.

HUM, that company has been down in sales the last three years in the USA, we have not and they don't think we can't make house paint??
 
The way i see it is if they ever do force water upon us, it will evolve more than what it is now, and I see no difference between learning it now than I do when/if we do get forced.
 
Chad.S;7983 said:
The way i see it is if they ever do force water upon us, it will evolve more than what it is now, and I see no difference between learning it now than I do when/if we do get forced.
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theres nothing wrong with it now man.
 
There is something wrong with it now. It is heavily affected by its environment. With solventborne, you can deal with drastic changed in temp and humidity. You cannot currently with waterborne. Unless your using something im not familiar with.
 
Hmm, a great way to cut smaller shops without expensive booths out of the picture, especially in colder climates (like mine).
 
i only deal with temp.. not humidity.. but i watched a buddy of mine paint the front clip of a car in open conditions in 55 degree weather in awe.. i ddint think that was possible..
 
Just found out today, DuPont has been testing using the premiere line and for a low VOC just using a special binder as a reducer.

Man, that is smart and hardly costs a thing to bring out another paint line.
 
And if DuPont can do it I bet other lines can as well. My Son had been doing some time studies with the waterborne. They installed a $10K airblower unit and it didn't work for crap. 4 minutes between coats is the best he can do with the hand held blowers on smaller jobs.
 
Bob, you are right it is a simple conversion.
Any base formula could be converted to a first test mix with about 30 minutes of computer time but I'm sure some PHD spent a year on it to justify his worth to the company.
 
well well well. if water is the holy grail as some call it, why the hell is dupont (and others) doing some r&d on compliant solvent base system. hmmmmmmmm.

maybe someone that uses water can tell me how good it would have worked for me yesterday when humidity was extremely high in booth and temp was 95. heard of a few shops down in charleston got rid of it because of the humidity. just wouldn't work.
 
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