majors' waterborne faq

Barry, I have never said the reds look better. I don't really think the colors look any different. No advertisement here. I have used both and know which one performs better. What it cost the manufacture to make is irrelevant to me. I only care about what it costs me. Water costs us less than solvent. If the company makes more that doesn't affect me as they are not selling it to me for cost. I see where your coming from a's a manufacture but everyone here is an end user. Like I said in an earlier post most products are priced according to what the market will bear. Is it fair, no but life isn't fair so I'm not going to cry over something I will never control.

BTW we don't have a contract with anyone. We never signed on with Dupont or sikkens.

I simply came here to offer an opinion from what I felt was a pretty good point of view as I have actually used both. I could give a shit less what anyone uses.
 
Ryan, that is fair enough for me.

Don't mean to be a little harsh but when I see these advertisements , reds are more red and colors match better and then see the tactics they have used the last 20 years trying to make waterborne law, it just don't set well with me.
It is all about their bottom line.

With that said, glad its working for you.
 
Fact is all waterborne systems arent the same...looks like dupont is working good for you over the solvent system...but i've seen the negative effects with sikkens between their solvent and waterborne system. It just doesn't work for everyone and every shop. BUT solvent seems to prevail for EVERYONE. I would look to switch companies before i decide to put water in just because its better than their current solvent form with any of the big companies...but thats just me.
 
I appreciate the waterbourne lessons. I don't have a business. I don't work for anyone. I'm just a retired office worker who'd like to paint another car. The local paint suppliers don't want to talk to me, let alone give me advice. I don't have a sales tax ID so most of the suppliers won't sell me the paint (end of conversation) but they do give me their brother-in-law's card "Lou's Drive-Thru Paint & Body." Thus, I have to order my paint over the Internet.

The only advice I get for waterbourne is brochures and TV comedy/commercial shows that tell me to attend company sponsored classes. I also hear that my success depends on being open to changing or tweaking my techniques. What techniques? I have painted with lacquer and enamel and screwed up one single stage silver job. I now have a decent gun and a clean and dry air supply. I know where to get plastic sheets and understand how to turn my garage into a gas chamber/spray booth. All of the help to get to this point has come from this site (I don't consider DupliColor sales pitches to be help). I have had amazing success with SPI epoxy primer, following the advice on this site. Beyond the quality and price of SPI products, Barry is willing to walk any one of us though successfully applying his coatings. If I ever hear of a PPG, DuPont, Sherwin Williams or RM hotline offering similar service, I'll consider changing -- as long as Rasheed Patel doesn't answer the phone.

I read a couple of DuPont waterbourne tech sheets to learn a bit more. I also searched for DuPont paint help sites. From the tech sheets I learned little and I couldn't find a help site. I guessed that the primer was a good place to start. The primer tech sheet pointed me to waterbourne etching primers for covering exposed metal but I'm painting my Corvette so I started with DuPont 210S Primer-Surfacer. I don't see any color but gray and it says tinting is not recommended. I was hoping to have a black primer under my black paint. Not a deal-breaker but.... Here's an excerpt from the tech sheet:

DuPont™ 210S™ - Primer-Surfacer (Gray)
Mix Ratio/Viscosity
Ready-to-Spray
Tips for Success
Do not reduce DuPont™ 210S™
Pot Life
Indefinite.
Additives
Accelerator: Not recommended.
Fish Eye Eliminator: Not recommended.
Flex Additive: Not recommended.
Reducer: Not recommended.
Retarder: Not recommended.
.
.
.
Application
Apply 2 - 3 medium-wet coats. Allow first coat to dry thoroughly prior to applying subsequent coats.
Allow sufficient flash time between second and third coats. Allow to dry thoroughly before sanding.
Flash/Dry Times
Air Dry
Flash between Coats: 15 - 20 minutes at 70°F and 50% relative humidity.
Wet Sanding: Not recommended.
Dry Sanding: 30 - 60 minutes.

Basically spray what's in the can and wait for it to dry. The 15-20 minutes at 70 and 50% humidity happened around noon in late February and I'll see it again some time in November. I'm disturbed that wet sanding is not recommended. I live in the wet part of hell so even dry sanding involves a lot of water - dripping off me. I am getting the idea that waterbourne means keep it away from water.

I assume all the sanding dust has to be blown off the car and everything else in the garage before I can proceed. Rolling the car outside and washing or heaven forbid, pressure washing it is out of the question. Is this the technique tweaking they are talking about?
 
Dupont has had waterborne primer available since the 80's. It was a muddy brown color back then. We used it in car lot type quicky repairs to seal ford pealers which I heard was an oem waterborne experiment gone bad. The clear was delmainating off of the base on these first generation bc/cc 80's oem mistakes and for a quick barrier coat the waterborne did the trick. It wasn't durable, didn't sand well, didn't cure well on humid days-but it provided a barrier so our lacquer wouldn't lift the failing factory paint.
A lot of bumper recyclers have been using waterborne primers for many years, doesn't sand well, becomes soluable with some solvent based cleaners, eventually becomes brittle-but it is high build,cheap,non toxic, long shelf life with infinate pot life, and can be sprayed over anything.
 
Bob Heine;8411 said:
I don't have a sales tax ID so most of the suppliers won't sell me the paint (end of conversation) but they do give me their brother-in-law's card "Lou's Drive-Thru Paint & Body." Thus, I have to order my paint over the Internet.
Click to expand...


This amazes me! Not sure why they won't sell to you without sales tax ID, a good percentage of my customers don't have a ID number, in fact a good percentage of the shops I go to don't have one, nor do they want one.
 
They probably only want to deal with companies with tax Id numbers to avoid having to deal with state sales tax. That way they don't have to keep straight the taxable from non.

Aaron
 
Have you tried lately? lol. seems like right now they will sell to anyone.

theres usually always a store around that sells to the diy guy.....one store in town here, thats most of the percentage of his sales.
 
Chad.S;8421 said:
This amazes me! Not sure why they won't sell to you without sales tax ID, a good percentage of my customers don't have a ID number, in fact a good percentage of the shops I go to don't have one, nor do they want one.
Click to expand...
Years ago I could walk into any one of the dozens of auto paint stores within ten miles of my house and buy what I wanted. They are all gone. When I look up auto paint supply in the local yellow pages, every place listed is a house paint or collision repair shop -- except Terry's Auto Paint Supply, Inc. -- a chain out of Winter Haven, FL. The guy at Terry's told me a gallon of single stage black would be five-hundred and something in far-har-something brand (I missed the something because my brain shuts off my hearing when it goes into shock). He continued with activators and reducers but it all sounded like Charley Brown's teacher (wha-wha-wha). That was my special price because I didn't have a commercial account or state sales tax ID. As Shine said, I didn't need to smell my boots....

I checked with the owner of a local collision shop who has a mixing station. A nearby supplier delivers what he needs. That supplier works out of a small warehouse with no sign outside and no counter inside.

It's a pretty easy test -- in yellowpages.com, look up "auto paint supply (or lies)" in zip 33432. A dozen Sherwin Williams stores pop up, along with a bunch of repair shops. When I visited the closest S-W store on the list he just laughed when I asked about automotive paint.
 
The stores in this area sell to anybody. Maybe there's a lot of huffers in Florida..........
 
My local jobber I buy paint from, said technically right now on the books here your not supposed to sell automotive paint to anyone who at least does not have an account with the jobber.. Of course this is for Big brother more than anything else.. I had an account for years with this jobber, but with the ever tightening EPA laws etc.. I closed my account.. I keep telling myself that if the day comes where I cant buy paint for myself without a handful of credentials for taxes, epa, etccc..someone I have known for ever and a day with a shop will let me buy thru them.. Crossing my fingers that day never comes, but if it does, I will deal with it then..

Sorry about your situation Bob.. I remember over a decade ago, one jobber around town made everyone sign a sheet showing proof of purchase of products etc.. That didnt last long.. But it was because of government for whatever reason
 
Thats what more people will do, bk, if that ever happens. Thing is, dhec already checks my invoices for material usage. So if somehow they deem my material usage doesn't equal my booth usage (which they also monitor) then i guess theres a fine involved? lol...not sure how they justify that since no one in the dhec business knows how to paint a car?

I dont exactly know if they look at it that way, but they do monitor both.
 
Bob Hollinshead;8441 said:
The stores in this area sell to anybody. Maybe there's a lot of huffers in Florida..........
Click to expand...
I think there's more duffers than huffers but you're probably right. Nothing shocks me when it comes to Florida law. In the Constitution of the State of Florida, Article X - Miscellaneous, Section 21. Limiting cruel and inhumane confinement of pigs during pregnancy. It specifies how big a pregnant pig's cage has to be -- pregnant human's cages aren't covered.
 
Bob Heine;8429 said:
The guy at Terry's told me a gallon of single stage black would be five-hundred and something in far-har-something brand (I missed the something because my brain shuts off my hearing when it goes into shock).
Click to expand...

I just want to relay this little bit. I have done a lot of spraying of certain industrial installations in the last couple of years and we buy industrially label Imron for about 100 ish per gallon (includes activator). Only comes in crap colors, you know tan, brown etc. Imron for your car oh, 2,3,400 a gallon. As far as I can tell it's the same stuff. Shoots the same. Seems the same when dry. My only thought is that no one in there right mind would buy 10-30 gallons of something for 300 a gallon and so they just make it cost less, even though essentially its the same thing.
 
dbohemian;8458 said:
I just want to relay this little bit. I have done a lot of spraying of certain industrial installations in the last couple of years and we buy industrially label Imron for about 100 ish per gallon (includes activator). Only comes in crap colors, you know tan, brown etc. Imron for your car oh, 2,3,400 a gallon. As far as I can tell it's the same stuff. Shoots the same. Seems the same when dry. My only thought is that no one in there right mind would buy 10-30 gallons of something for 300 a gallon and so they just make it cost less, even though essentially its the same thing.
Click to expand...

Nothing new there, I've seen other products in industrial lines that are a relabeled version of the top shelf stuff priced for that market. The profit per unit goes down but the sale in volume makes up for it.
 
Bob Hollinshead;8476 said:
Nothing new there, I've seen other products in industrial lines that are a relabeled version of the top shelf stuff priced for that market. The profit per unit goes down but the sale in volume makes up for it.
Click to expand...

This is true, as people have no clue how big the industrial market is compared to auto refinish market.
The automotive refinish market is peanuts in size compared to the industrial market. Like 30-1 on the very conservative figure.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top