Is mixing ratio an indicator of quality?
- Thread starter MikeS
- Start date
crashtech
Combo Man & Mod
At higher hardener to clear ratios, it's easier to make the product high solids, but overall I don't think the ratio really proves anything. SPI Euro for instance is 4:1 and also very high solids, but to get there, they have to make the hardener almost like syrup, it's so high in isocyanates. The only real way to tell is to measure dry mils, and even then, you don't know anything about the additive package, specifically UV absorbers. I always love to hear what Barry has to say about this, though, and if anything I say is wrong I hope he'll correct me.
I recall Barry mentioning that some 2:1 clears are a quick way for paint companies to make some easy money.
I can't remember the specifics of why though, and obviously we can't paint 2:1 clears with the same brush.
Interesting question nonetheless.
My understanding is the quality of the raw materials used to make the product being activated is what makes it high or low as far as durability, DOI etc goes. We put about the same amount of hardner in cheap filler as we do the expensive stuff. One spreads and sands better than the other. Each one still does what it was made to do. Fill in low places and be primed, painted. Just my 2 cents.
I agree with Crashes comment and would add that back before the lovely people of the EPA requiring manufacturers to change the formulas to have less ISO'S they made the product worse, IMO. Back in the day when true Imron, Starthane and PPG'S real Epoxy all were loaded with ISO'S and we're the end all for durability. So for me if it is loaded with ISO'S and California outlawed it then it must be good.
As for the heavier mix ratio (1/1), not being or pretending to be a chemist, there is something better about it. The formula must be differant to accept the larger amount of hardner to get it to kick off. I never did it but if you mixed a 1/1 clear 4/1 would it Cure? And if it ever would, would it cure Properly? So if you shot a couple extra coats of a 4/1 clear would it equal the quality and durability of a 1/1 Clear? I'm not to sure.
I could be thinking too much in the days of the good stuff but that is what really got me into SPI, the fact that they had a 1/1 Epoxy and Clear and for me that stood for quality and durability. Could be wrong though
As for the heavier mix ratio (1/1), not being or pretending to be a chemist, there is something better about it. The formula must be differant to accept the larger amount of hardner to get it to kick off. I never did it but if you mixed a 1/1 clear 4/1 would it Cure? And if it ever would, would it cure Properly? So if you shot a couple extra coats of a 4/1 clear would it equal the quality and durability of a 1/1 Clear? I'm not to sure.
I could be thinking too much in the days of the good stuff but that is what really got me into SPI, the fact that they had a 1/1 Epoxy and Clear and for me that stood for quality and durability. Could be wrong though
Jim C
Oldtimer
the universal clear for instance. that is 1:1 because the solvent system of the clear is in the activator not the clear itself. this way the correct speed solvents are used for the correct speed activator. this is why the activator is so thin and you need more of it. with any clear, you need x amount of iso for x amount of resin so mix ratio all depends on how the company designs the clear.
Lots of scams and BS in this business.
You can make a 4:1 with the same quality as the 1:1 but if a high solid, it is very difficult to get right.
We have done this with the 5000 as it is the exact formula as the 4000 but feel the weight of the activator cans as no room of solvents except the solvents used as a carrier for the iso's and that is why the clear NUST be reduced to spray.
Ditto with the 2100 but only a 42-44% solids, so no need to reduce.
Factor for quality is types of resins used and mix and types of UV absorbers used and how the OH/NCO is set up as well as there are 1000 variables to choose from here.
To answer a question if the 1:1 is mixed 4:1 it will dry but NEVER fully cure.
Also epoxy does not use iso's, now there are some very specialized that do but you will never see them in automotive or any other normal application and they are very specific use type products.
JimC has the right idea.
You can make a 4:1 with the same quality as the 1:1 but if a high solid, it is very difficult to get right.
We have done this with the 5000 as it is the exact formula as the 4000 but feel the weight of the activator cans as no room of solvents except the solvents used as a carrier for the iso's and that is why the clear NUST be reduced to spray.
Ditto with the 2100 but only a 42-44% solids, so no need to reduce.
Factor for quality is types of resins used and mix and types of UV absorbers used and how the OH/NCO is set up as well as there are 1000 variables to choose from here.
To answer a question if the 1:1 is mixed 4:1 it will dry but NEVER fully cure.
Also epoxy does not use iso's, now there are some very specialized that do but you will never see them in automotive or any other normal application and they are very specific use type products.
JimC has the right idea.
Was always told Epoxy had ISO'S in it back when I was using the heck out of the original DP Epoxy and Imron never questioned it.
I always use to walk back in after spraying without a respirator to look it over and was told that ISO'S still could be in the air and never do it. I kinda liked the smell of fresh paint, now I can't take much of it I get heart burn.
Was told that ISO'S when breathed in never leave your lungs, is that True? Or was that a scare tactic I was being told.
I always use to walk back in after spraying without a respirator to look it over and was told that ISO'S still could be in the air and never do it. I kinda liked the smell of fresh paint, now I can't take much of it I get heart burn.
Was told that ISO'S when breathed in never leave your lungs, is that True? Or was that a scare tactic I was being told.
Chris_Hamilton
Trying to be the best me, I can be
Isocyanates go through your liver which then metabolizes them. Long term exposure can cause various issues including asthma like symptoms. Chronic long term exposure can cause some people to become "allergic" to them and cause a reaction to Iso's in even small amounts. Most of us know a painter to whom this has happened.
I've read over the years that taking a megadose of Vitamin E each day helps. Whether it does or not I don't know but I do it.
Many years ago when I was a Pup, I heard of two local painters who had started using Imron, get very sick and die shortly thereafter. Supposedly neither one was wearing any sort of lung protection and breathing high concentrations of Imron killed them. I don't know if that's 100% true but I have heard many stories of guys spraying Imron and later suffering the paint allergy issue.
I've read over the years that taking a megadose of Vitamin E each day helps. Whether it does or not I don't know but I do it.
Many years ago when I was a Pup, I heard of two local painters who had started using Imron, get very sick and die shortly thereafter. Supposedly neither one was wearing any sort of lung protection and breathing high concentrations of Imron killed them. I don't know if that's 100% true but I have heard many stories of guys spraying Imron and later suffering the paint allergy issue.
One of the classes I was in about 10-12 years ago, the one day they had a medical professor speak to the class and he said the iso's stick to the small hairs in the lungs and unlike smoking, the lungs cannot clean themselves.
Also noted the iso's build up in your system and can overtime sensitize you to the point you may never be able to be around them again.
Never heard the Imron deaths but the old original had a lot of iso's in them, today it's totally different than the stuff in 70's and 80's. good protection and have good airflow for anything you spray.
Always make sure you have good protection and good airflow with anything you spray.
Also noted the iso's build up in your system and can overtime sensitize you to the point you may never be able to be around them again.
Never heard the Imron deaths but the old original had a lot of iso's in them, today it's totally different than the stuff in 70's and 80's. good protection and have good airflow for anything you spray.
Always make sure you have good protection and good airflow with anything you spray.
