egale abrasives

never use a hard block on clear unless it is 600/re-clear. but i don't try to jump grits. i even use 1200 after 1000 before 1500. 2000 was designed to remove 1500 ,2500 was designed to remove 2000 . why else would they make it. ??? each one does it's job quick. at the end i want only 3000 to deal with on buffing. your not really sanding more just changing paper.
 
I am happy with the final product. It just took me a lot of elbow grease to get there.

I sanded my first 3 coats with 400, then flow coated. I used very slow activator for my second clear session, which was probably a mistake (it was in the 80s). I ended up with some runs and a good bit of thane wave. Maybe if I would have sprayed it right, I wouldn't have needed to hard block it with 1000.
 
i don't see 1000 blocking out thanewave .that is what i love about the iwata. my final clear session never has wave since the iwata will do nice slick thin coats. you should have seen it with my old jga .... :) looked like a tsunami coming in . i fought the switch lvlp for way too long .
 
shine;12543 said:
i bought out a supply years ago. had hook-it stacked everywhere. just now getting down to the last of it. not really a 3m fan any more. i hate the green tape !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ha! I hate green tape too! But. I use eagle products. I use a fair bit of the assilex and bufflex dry products. Both are the best I have found for curved surfaces. they are super conformable.

I haven't a lot of experience with the yellow disks, used a few and they seem great to.

Dave
 
packin31;12592 said:
Hi Bob,

Do the dry ones come with the pad?

Can it be used on Single Stage?

Thanks

Singlestage should sand the same as clear for the most part, I've never tried the dry buflex system-can't figure out how a grit that fine can be used dry unless it's a mesh? There was some discussion about sanding with a hard block on clear-not working and inconsistencies with hand sand scratches.... I use pexiglass and aluminum blocks and sticks for 90% of my first cut and use rubber pads for the highly contoured areas-thickness is determined by the amount of conformability needed. My stuff ends up as straight and flat as possible and I don't have problems. I have had problems in the past removing 600 grit scratches so I start with 1000 which I find is plenty coarse enough to cut any defects in texture out flat and straight. A few things can cause some random heavy scratches (inconsistant): contamination during sanding, and cheap paper. I've seen some paper break down during use and drop clumps of abrasives that get get drug around during the sanding. 3M works fine, Indasia some grits are OK, Nikkens-awesome paper IMO, Norton red worked OK. I bought some ebay offshore 2000&3000 with a blue backing that was a nightmare. I'd like to try some of Eagle's sheet paper-if it's like the 3000 vinyl I bet it's really good.
 
I wanted to revisit this topic especially after I re-read it and can sympathize with strum456's frustration. Ive gone through the same thing....spent a ton of cash trying outh different sandpaper, coumpounds, buffing pads, and buffing speeds etc. I spent big $$ on the 3M finishing film, 3M trizact 1500 (purple discs) and the 3M 3000 trizact foam backed discs.

Here is the process I used and have played with:

6 coats of UV (800 grit after 3 + 3 more) I am a first time painter so it doesnt come out perfect.

Then I use 3M finishing film 600 grit or 800 grit and I use it by hand....put it on a 6" DA pad and spread my hand out to grab the pad and then sand by hand in forward backward strokes.

After 600-800 grit like this I do the same with 3M 1000 grit film by hand on the DA pad

Then I used the 3M trizact 1500 purple Non-film disc and spray some water on the area to use the discs wet. I use my 3/32 stroke Airvantage sander with a fam backing pad with theese discs.

Then I used the 3M trizact 3000 grit foam backed discs with a spritz of water to get the 1500 grit scratches out. Ive even followed up with the Mirka Abralon 4000 pads wet.

Then Ive used a wool compounding pad (several types) and Mezerna Power gloss (tried Megs 105 also) and try buffing it out. It buffs to a shine....if you look close though like an 1-2 inch away under flourescent light you notice a "texture" (the texture is a fine crosshatch type of pattern) on the paint surface. I discover later that its actually created by the DA sanding with the 1500 trizact.....and doesnt seem to buff out too well or in my case doesnt buff out completely at all no matter what I have tried.

So I followed the power gloss with Mezerna IP (Intensive polish) with an orange foam pad (tried Megs 205 and other brands of middle step compounds)....it buffs to a higher shine.....but 1 inch away under the flourescent lights the "texture" is still there on the paint surface. I followed up with a Mezerna final polish....buffs to a nice high shine but the 1 inch away (gotta look close) "texture" is still there.

So not knowing where this "texture" came from I examined a freshly painted clear coat surface.......My first time painting but no "texture" there...just some small waves...eyes 2 inches away under indoor lighting.

So the cross hatch "texture" is from the sanding or buffing process. Thinking its the wool, I removed the wool pad from the buffing process. Still got "texture" in the final result. Removing the scratches with a foam pad, in place of the wool was very difficult.

So instead of using the finishing film 600-800 grit on a 6" DA pad by hand I sanded with these grits using the finishing film on the DA (with a foam interface) and went back to wool for compounding. Still got texture (it was worse than before) and there was more thane wave visible in the final result.

Pissed off, I said I think the "texture" is more a result of using the DA and the film discs....I think especially the Trizact 1500 discs. With that thought I went to only hand hardblock wetsanding.

Hand hard block sanding:
Started with 1000 grit wet Nikkens sandpaper with a Durablock hard rubber block
Followed with 1500 grit Mirka wet paper same durablock
Followed with 2000 grit wet Indasa red paper same durablock
Followed by 2500 grit wet Nikkens paper same durablock
Followed by 3m 3000 trizact foam disc on the DA wet.

Buffing:
Then went to wool/Mezerna power gloss
then Mezerna IP/orange foam pad
Then Mezerna polish/black foam pad

Result.....High gloss, thane wave pretty much gone (starting with 800 grit wet hard block might help), and the 1-2 inch away "texture" under indoor flourescent light...much much less. This Texture is now much more uniform and not as prevelant....from 1 inch away.

I think crashtech mentioned in another thread about a texture he saw (only up close) in some of his results. So from my experimenting, my "texture" was mainly coming from the DA sanding using the 3M finishing film and trizact 1500 discs and maybe the 3000 trizact.....but I think the 3000 trizact is easily buffed out where as the 1500 trizact not easily buffed out.

With my hand/hardblock sanding u can just see the faint straight scratches. THis is if you stick your nose on the paint surface and actually concentrate on trying to see scratches in the outlines of the flourescent lights in the paint surface.

So I thought I would share to maybe help others who are first starting out and getting a bit frustrated especially since the DA based film discs are so expensive. I was expecting perfection after spending big $$ on all those film/trizact discs. So, for me I am getting best results by sticking with a hard block, and wet-sanding by hand. Ive tried alot of different brands of wet sandpaper and love the Nikkens (which is sold by MeGuiars) wet sandpaper sheets. Seems to cut smooth and last a long time.

In all....A very frustrating......painful process but I think I am finally on the right path that will work best for me. Gonna stick with hard block hand sanding.
 
For those of you that think you don't get urethane wave, look at this
picture and see if you can see it. It takes reflections of something really
straight to show it up when it's slightly there.
the top of the picture makes it look "straight"
But look at the garage door overhead-obvious wave.
Most painters don't even know they have it.


IMG_1948.jpg
 
esahlin, any possibility you may have had some microscopic dirt contamination while sanding?
 
C10chas;24996 said:
esahlin, any possibility you may have had some microscopic dirt contamination while sanding?

Yeah its definitely possible, but Ive re-tried the whole wet sanding process so many times using many different attempts at cleanliness (clean rags and wax and grease remover after every sanding step, clean discs, lots of water every step etc) and still end up with texture.... so I think the DA sanding/discs as still the major factor in creating the "texture" in my process.

All in all, Being that this is the first time I have ever painted/buffed a car....I think my expectations were way to high (I thought the paint surface would be glass smooth even from 2 inches away looking at the flourescent light outlines when I was done) for what I was going to be capable of being a first time painter/buffer. Of course this is my own personal car Ive spent 10 years restoring so I was being too anal about it and expecting a glass smooth surface (even under a magnifying glass?????).

There was actually an unusual brief moment of sunshine here in Seattle yesterday, so I took the fender outside I was recently buffing and it looked great in the sun.......I have to resolve myself to not stick my nose on the surface and look for scratches...... :)
 
you may well be over heating the surface. this will give a fine grain vinyl look even though it was sanded flat.
 
eashlin, if you are using the purple 1500 trizact film discs best thing you can do is pick up the box, walk over to the trash can, open and insert. they are junk and cause all sorts of issues. do your sanding with dry finishing film discs for your 1000 and 1500 step then jump to the trizact 3000 or the green eagle bufflex discs. also as shine said, too much heat always causes a texture. if your not getting all the scratches out from the step prior when i comes time to buff your gonna have to work the surface too much and generate that heat. the less you work it with that buffer to get the sand scratches out the better and flatter.
 
Yes, it was the purple 1500 trizact discs that I struggled mightily with.....Will attempt getting some 1500 finishing film ones and give that a shot.

If heat is a definite source of texture as you and shine both mentioned then that could definitley be a factor in my results. Since I have not tried anything yet to keep heat generation to a minimum......it could be my part of my problem.

Thanks for the tips......I Will try some different things here in the coming weeks and report back if I discover anything that significantly improves my results.
 
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