Delfleet Essential Test Panel - What do you think?

[Chris_Hamilton]

Are you trying to run it at the recommended pressure or are you turning it up some like we recommended? The pressure recommendations of the gun manufacturer are usually too low for a true high solids paint. Turn that thing up if you haven't already. That product is not really designed to go on slick either. One of the reasons we were against it.

Reduce it to the max using slow reducer. Turn your pressure up. I would try 30 psi at the gun with the trigger pulled to start. You need air to break up the solids so to speak. 75% overlap.

If it is true orange peel you are spraying too far from the panel and your overlap isn't tight enough. If it looks like the earlier pics you posted, that is not orange peel. That is texture from spraying too heavy. Cut your fluid back, up the pressure, tighten overlap to 75%. You could also try over reducing it a bit. If 10% is the max, give it 15-20%. See what happens. Should make it spray a little slicker and the only real drawback would be you would need to spray more coats.

Using SPI very slow reducer. Was about 78F in the tent today. Did 5 minute timed flashes.

5 minutes is not enough, especially with very slow reducer and 78 degrees. Nowhere near enough time. That is why you had solvent pop. Next time try it like this. Have a piece of tape or masking paper on the test panel at the edge. After spraying let it flash and occasionally check the paper/tape by sliding your gloved finger on it. If it is wet or stringy it needs more flash time. When you can slide your finger on the tape and it doesn't string it has flashed enough and you can apply another coat, Or just wait 30 minutes between coats.

 

[erover82]

Are you trying to run it at the recommended pressure or are you turning it up some like we recommended? The pressure recommendations of the gun manufacturer are usually too low for a true high solids paint. Turn that thing up if you haven't already. That product is not really designed to go on slick either. One of the reasons we were against it.

Reduce it to the max using slow reducer. Turn your pressure up. I would try 30 psi at the gun with the trigger pulled to start. You need air to break up the solids so to speak. 75% overlap.

If it is true orange peel you are spraying too far from the panel and your overlap isn't tight enough. If it looks like the earlier pics you posted, that is not orange peel. That is texture from spraying too heavy. Cut your fluid back, up the pressure, tighten overlap to 75%. You could also try over reducing it a bit. If 10% is the max, give it 15-20%. See what happens. Should make it spray a little slicker and the only real drawback would be you would need to spray more coats.


5 minutes is not enough, especially with very slow reducer and 78 degrees. Nowhere near enough time. That is why you had solvent pop. Next time try it like this. Have a piece of tape or masking paper on the test panel at the edge. After spraying let it flash and occasionally check the paper/tape by sliding your gloved finger on it. If it is wet or stringy it needs more flash time. When you can slide your finger on the tape and it doesn't string it has flashed enough and you can apply another coat, Or just wait 30 minutes between coats.

Thanks for confirming my suspicion on flash time. It's hard to tell when it's flashed visually since it stays glossy, unlike epoxy.

Pressure was 29 PSI, tried 35 but it blew out the pattern. Not texture from spraying heavy and seeing runs and sagging. I've learned to avoid that now.

Just remembered I have a gallon of Automotive Art solid white SS. Maybe I should spray that to see if I have the same struggle.

Is it normal to get peel from spraying 2" further out vs closer? I'm thinking it shouldn't be this sensitive. If it's normal, you guys must move with the accuracy of robots.

 

[Chris_Hamilton]

Personally if I had to use that paint and was struggling with getting it slick, I would over reduce it. Like I said above 20% or so.

Thanks for confirming my suspicion on flash time. It's hard to tell when it's flashed visually since it stays glossy, unlike epoxy.

That's why you give it 30 minutes or do the tape test.

Pressure was 29 PSI, tried 35 but it blew out the pattern.

Your gun may not be capable of spraying a true high solids paint. Honestly you should buy a decent gun. Sell it when finished if your budget demands that you do. Good gun on Ebay will bring 75% of new.

Is it normal to get peel from spraying 2" further out vs closer? I'm thinking it shouldn't be this sensitive.

Most HVLP/Compliant guns are designed to spray 4-6 inches from the surface. You want to be in this range. Closer to 4" than 6". Varying your gun distance is not your answer. Doing the things I said above will help far more than holding your gun farther out.

Is it normal to get peel from spraying 2" further out vs closer? I'm thinking it shouldn't be this sensitive.

If it looks like the previous pics it's not orange peel. Post a pic so we can see what you are dealing with.

 

[crashtech]

I just have to wonder where the 5 minute flash time came from.

 

[erover82]

I just have to wonder where the 5 minute flash time came from.

Inexperience!.. and I'm doing two test panels every morning before work, so I don't have all day. That and the last 6 or so panels had no solvent pop when spraying further out (~8") with 5 minute flash, so when I tried moving in closer this morning it smoothed out, but I didn't increase flash time because I was trying to change one variable at a time. Also the paint TDS says 5-10 minute flash.

Your gun may not be capable of spraying a true high solids paint. Honestly you should buy a decent gun. Sell it when finished if your budget demands that you do. Good gun on Ebay will bring 75% of new.

Not sure if you saw, but I switched guns, to this one:

I went with a 1.5 tip, which they recommend for high-solids. Called the company to confirm. It's no $500 gun, but I see people getting great results all over the web with these, so I'm thinking it's just me and my difficult paint.

Most HVLP/Compliant guns are designed to spray 4-6 inches from the surface. You want to be in this range. Closer to 4" than 6". Varying your gun distance is not your answer. Doing the things I said above will help far more than holding your gun farther out.

Understood. What you says correlates roughly with what the gun specs say: Max. Pattern at 4" to 7" Distance: 9" - 10-1/4"
I feel more comfortable spraying further out, but it's obviously not going to work that way. Didn't think it would make such a difference with temps being between 70-78 in the mornings here.

If it looks like the previous pics it's not orange peel. Post a pic so we can see what you are dealing with.

Will do.

 

[Chris_Hamilton]

I saw that. Still not a good gun. I don't care what YouTube says. He's also not spraying what you are spraying which is a true high solids paint. Whether it's the road block in your attempting to spray IDK. Does yours have the 1.3 needle/nozzle? IMO I don't think that is big enough to shoot what you are using. Medium solids, basecoat, sealer, that gun would probably be OK. But you have true high solids paint and you need a gun capable of spraying it. For example with Universal Clear SPI recommends a 1.4 needle/nozzle with the exception of Sata RP's which are actually oversized. So trying to spray this stuff with that gun is going to be hard IMO.

Post a pic as I can imagine that you might have orange peel using that gun because it's not getting enough material out the nozzle and isn't breaking it up well either.

Do a test panel where you over reduce. Might be your easiest option to be able to spray this stuff.

Nothing more I can add to this discussion. I've pretty much given you all the info I can.

 

[crashtech]

Okay, don't pay attention to the flash time in the TDS. Flash time is highly dependent on conditions, reducer speed, how heavy it was sprayed, etc. Do what Chris said and have a portion of the painted surface that you can run a dry finger lightly across, when the paint stops being sticky and you can brush it with your finger without sticking, that is "hand slick" and is the minimum flash time. Maximum flash is dependent on temp, humidity, and material speeds, but 30 minutes is probably a safe maximum under most conditions.

 

[erover82]

Does yours have the 1.3 needle/nozzle?

1.5 was recommended by Astro, and it made sense, so that's what I got.

Post a pic as I can imagine that you might have orange peel using that gun because it's not getting enough material out the nozzle and isn't breaking it up well either.

I did have the fluid turned down a few turns to avoid runs, but I think that was yet another mistake.

Here are my latest tests using your guy's advice, all with the new 1.5 HVLP gun.

10% reduced, fluid adjusted back to full, tighter overlap, longer flash time, moving fast as I can maintain control, distance kept about 5". Maybe not the least peel, but most consistent panel I've achieved. Left photo is focused out, right is focused in. (click to enlarge)

Moved up to 15% reduced on next test. Smoother, but beginning to run.

20% reduced on this test. Left photo is focused out, middle is focused in, last is one of the runs.

Not sure where to go from here to avoid runs at higher reduction. Can't controllably move faster. Reduce fluid adjustment? Go to 1.3 tip since it's reduced more? Am I stuck at 10% reduction?

 

[crashtech]

1.5 is a big tip. You probably need to adjust it in some or get something smaller. Most people use a 1.4.

 

[Chris_Hamilton]

It looks good enough to spray, just plan to cut and buff. Cut your fluid back some more. You are still spraying on the heavy side.

 

[erover82]

Thanks for the help, I know it's difficult over the interweb. Going to keep tweaking things to see if I can improve it a bit more.

Meanwhile, I've painted a small piece to mail off to Chad to be matched in Motocryl. I'll use that for the exterior, and use the PPG for interior where most of it is hidden anyway. I did get a quote for Glasurit 22, but $2k per gallon is crazy for a truck that's going to be used off-road. Is there a guide somewhere to estimating how many gallons to order? I'm thinking 4 coats, and I know the size of the vehicle, but I'm not sure if the TDS coverage calculations are generally realistic.

 

[crashtech]

Just to post a counter-argument, $2000 on paint is nothing next to the value of the vehicle and your time, which I assume is going to amount to hundreds of hours. Sometimes it's smart to step back and get some overall perspective. I'd use 22-line or Concept in a heartbeat on something like your project, if I could get it.

That won't stop me from helping you try to use the fleet paint, but as someone who gets paid to guarantee results, to me it is a no-brainer.

 

[erover82]

Just to post a counter-argument, $2000 on paint is nothing next to the value of the vehicle and your time, which I assume is going to amount to hundreds of hours. Sometimes it's smart to step back and get some overall perspective. I'd use 22-line or Concept in a heartbeat on something like your project, if I could get it.

That won't stop me from helping you try to use the fleet paint, but as someone who gets paid to guarantee results, to me it is a no-brainer.

Absolutely, this has been an extremely expensive and time consuming project, even doing all the work myself, but at the end of the day it's going to be driven through the bush. For me, that really makes me question going for a top of the line paint. Good durable paint, yes, but the best to get scratched up? That's a tough one. Also, not sure how this would be quantified, but is 22 three to four times better than Motocryl? My understanding is that Motocryl is already an upgrade over Delfleet or the converted Motobase I can get locally.

Whatever the case, do you guys generally rely on TDS coverage stats to calculate how much you need for a job? Do you multiply that by a factor to make sure you have enough?

 

[crashtech]

I don't think you can look at quality that way. Quality is on an exponential price curve; as the quality of a product or service approaches "perfection," the price approaches infinity! So a $2K can of paint is just farther along that curve in a spot where going from something like 90% to 97% can cost you many times the money. Is it worth it? Only to those who know.

The only time I pay attention to the TDS is when I'm painting something unfamiliar, last time I used math to figure coverage was painting restroom stall dividers. And I was off a bit and had to slightly over-reduce my final batches. It's best to order more than you think you will need, this can also come in handy for future repairs.

 

[Chris_Hamilton]

IMO Glasurit 22 is the finest SS available. SPI SS is awesome as well, in the colors available I would use it without a second thought. But for the rest of the colors out there Glasurit SS is the best. Hardcore Porsche guys will only use Glasurit as it came on Porsche OEM.

 

[crashtech]

I think 22-line is one of the last German single-stage products still made. Standox no longer makes SS, that much is certain.

 

[erover82]

IMO Glasurit 22 is the finest SS available. SPI SS is awesome as well, in the colors available I would use it without a second thought. But for the rest of the colors out there Glasurit SS is the best. Hardcore Porsche guys will only use Glasurit as it came on Porsche OEM.

Would like to restore a Porsche some day, and for that the 22 sounds perfect. Right now I just need something that lays out better than the Delfleet for the exterior but that I don't feel too guilty reenacting Camel Trophy fantasies.