Hey guys, first off let me say thank you in advance for any insight you may be able to offer. This is a huge project and I am really stumped on how to proceed.
Project Details:
I am in the middle of a paint job/refit of a 52’ sailing catamaran (25' wide). It has over 3000 sf of surface area that needs to be painted. This is a massive project and has consumed about 2500 man hours to date. Between each major step we washed with dawn/water, used a solvent based degreaser from Alexseal using the two rag method, used a wipe down solvent from Alexseal using the two rag method, tried our best to keep a clean working area, etc….but this is a big boat yard and who knows what was happening outside of the tent while we were working.
During the summer months up until this past week we had 8ea 42” belt driven fans pulling unfiltered air into the building to keep the temps manageable, who knows what they stirred up/brought into the work area.
All tools have been electric based festool stuff (no pneumatics), all paper has been 3m cubitron II or Festool Granat.
This project included removal of all hardware, windows, hatches, sanded off all the old paint and non-skid areas down to fairing or existing primer, fixed all the cracks/imperfections in the surface (West systems epoxy with micro balloons - with glass where needed), faired the entire boat with an epoxy fairing filler (Alexseal 202), and sprayed 4 coats of epoxy primer (Alexseal 442), used mirka guide coat to knock down the orange peel in the finish primer.
Problem:
We are getting random fisheyes on almost all of the horizontal surfaces we have sprayed base coat onto (Alexseal 501) - maybe 10ea per SQFT on average. The vertical surfaces we tested have some fisheyes, maybe 1 per SQFT on average. The fisheyes are small, and we can fill about 50% of them by spraying a light base coat, letting it tack up, then spraying a wet 2nd coat but some of them are stubborn and won't fill with base material.
No matter how many times we wipe the finish primer clean we are still getting fisheyes. We have done numerous test areas using W&G before sanding the contaminated primer, sanded with 400 grit changing the sheet every few SQft, wiped with W&G again, solvent wiped, etc… I believe whatever is causing the fisheyes is embedded into the primer and I believe we are just revealing new contamination every time we sand. The fisheyes are extremely random, one area might have none for 10+ SQFT and then an adjacent area might have 50 in a 1 sqft area.
Possible sources of contamination:
Things that have been done:
Possible solutions that have been tossed around:
Does anyone have any insight? I am really hesitant to use the FEE but at this point it may be the only solution that does not cost $50K+
Project Details:
I am in the middle of a paint job/refit of a 52’ sailing catamaran (25' wide). It has over 3000 sf of surface area that needs to be painted. This is a massive project and has consumed about 2500 man hours to date. Between each major step we washed with dawn/water, used a solvent based degreaser from Alexseal using the two rag method, used a wipe down solvent from Alexseal using the two rag method, tried our best to keep a clean working area, etc….but this is a big boat yard and who knows what was happening outside of the tent while we were working.
During the summer months up until this past week we had 8ea 42” belt driven fans pulling unfiltered air into the building to keep the temps manageable, who knows what they stirred up/brought into the work area.
All tools have been electric based festool stuff (no pneumatics), all paper has been 3m cubitron II or Festool Granat.
This project included removal of all hardware, windows, hatches, sanded off all the old paint and non-skid areas down to fairing or existing primer, fixed all the cracks/imperfections in the surface (West systems epoxy with micro balloons - with glass where needed), faired the entire boat with an epoxy fairing filler (Alexseal 202), and sprayed 4 coats of epoxy primer (Alexseal 442), used mirka guide coat to knock down the orange peel in the finish primer.
Problem:
We are getting random fisheyes on almost all of the horizontal surfaces we have sprayed base coat onto (Alexseal 501) - maybe 10ea per SQFT on average. The vertical surfaces we tested have some fisheyes, maybe 1 per SQFT on average. The fisheyes are small, and we can fill about 50% of them by spraying a light base coat, letting it tack up, then spraying a wet 2nd coat but some of them are stubborn and won't fill with base material.
No matter how many times we wipe the finish primer clean we are still getting fisheyes. We have done numerous test areas using W&G before sanding the contaminated primer, sanded with 400 grit changing the sheet every few SQft, wiped with W&G again, solvent wiped, etc… I believe whatever is causing the fisheyes is embedded into the primer and I believe we are just revealing new contamination every time we sand. The fisheyes are extremely random, one area might have none for 10+ SQFT and then an adjacent area might have 50 in a 1 sqft area.
Possible sources of contamination:
- The boat is stored inside a 40x80 hoop barn. The metal frame came from the manufacturer with an oil based protectant on it. We wiped it off as we were constructing the tent but there is a possibility some was not removed/it is still probably on the inside of the metal tubing. During the 6 months we have been inside the tent there have been numerous days where we would get condensation that drips onto the boat. Up until this point we were just wiping the condensation off the boat with clean rags. There is a possibility this condensation was contaminated with oil from the structure, and all we did was smear it around and then sand it into our finished surface.
- The boat had a ceramic coating over the entire boat before we started. This was removed using mechanical abrasion/sanding. The ceramic coating dust was treated like any other dust, but the paint manufacturer is now telling us the only safe way to remove this is with a specific chemical remover. If the dust was sanded into the surface when we were removing old paint, it may be impossible to ever get it out. Seems far fetched but at this point anything is possible.
- The boat had lots of seized hardware that was removed using PB blaster/kroil and it was cleaned up with acetone. I am now learning that acetone may have opened up the surface and allowed the oils to penetrate the surface causing contamination that was sanded into other areas?
- The boat's hatches and windows were previously sealed using silicone based products. The silicone was mechanically cut using a fein tool with a sealant knife. Then razor bladed clean, but residual silicone was still present. Residual silicone was removed using anti-bond 2015 and then acetone. Some of the silicone still remained in the pores of the old surface and it was sanded off or maybe into the substrate?
- The previous owner of the boat had it painted when it was in Palma de Mallorca about 10 years ago, maybe they used a fisheye eliminator? We have reached out to the yard who did the work, but no response yet.
- Contamination from the boat yard, the gravel under the boat, the parking lot construction work that was being performed on the property adjacent to the yard. Numerous days where concrete saws were being used with huge dust clouds. Contamination in the water. Who knows?????
- The original spray equipment contaminated the primer as it was being applied.
- The fairing or primer from Alexseal was contaminated. The manufacturer is pulling remnants from the batches and running lab tests (our daily production sheets contain all the batch numbers) This could take 2-3 months and no matter the outcome of the tests the boat needs to be finished. Hopefully we come to find it is a manufacturing defect and they pony up ALOT of $$$ but we can't stop work while we wait for that process to be completed.
Things that have been done:
- All new spray equipment has been purchased. New compressor, new dryer, new hoses. Using 3m PPS cups/equipment. Sata 3k RP guns. Filters at the guns. etc... Still getting the fisheyes. Equipment was tested outside the boat and provided a perfect finish on Aluminum foil, 12+ test panels. I think i can say for certain that the equipment/current material is good/not causing the fisheyes.
- We performed a super deep clean of the tent/metal structure. Everything but the boat was removed from the tent. Every piece of metal was wiped down with W&G. Every single item in the tent was wiped down with W&G. The entire boat was sheeted off and 10 gallons of simple green were sprayed into the structure and tent. Tent and structure was washed 3 times with clean filtered water on 3 consecutive days. Boat was thoroughly washed with dawn, and then wiped down with W&G, and then a wipe down solvent.
Possible solutions that have been tossed around:
- Respray the entire boat with 2 coats of primer (gray) to seal the contamination in place. Guide coat and pray we don't burn into the contaminated white primer. Concern here is that the solvent will actually pull the contaminated materials to the surface as the primer flashes off.
- Spray the entire boat with 2 coats of 501 topcoat, identify the fisheye areas, fill in each one with a glazing putty or a dabber with 501 topcoat, razor blade excess and sand smooth with 400, reshoot with 3 coats of 501 topcoat. There are hundreds if not thousands of fisheyes to fix so this seems like a massive undertaking.
- Use 3m/marson smoothie II fisheye eliminator and pray it works.
Does anyone have any insight? I am really hesitant to use the FEE but at this point it may be the only solution that does not cost $50K+
