Another Welding Question

rustover

Member
I would like to be able to weld sheet metal without anyone ever know it was done, but I'm a long way from that. I cut and made two patches for my rear inner fenders. These were very small patches. I used the setup chart with gas and .023 wire. I actually found it better to run the welder just a tad hotter with a faster wire speed. I got good penetration on my tacks, however on the back of the patch before grinding it down there were just a few areas that I could see the line where the two pieces of metal were butted up to each other. Once I ground the back side down, it looked ok.


Here is the first patch.












Here is the second:











I'm a little worried about the backside. On the front you can still tell where I welded it at. I believe the second patch could use some more grinding, but I'm afraid I will take more metal off in the surrounding metal, thus making a weak repair. What do you guys think?
 
When sizing the patch, I-CAR recommends leaving a gap. Too tight may limit penetration, which could have been your problem. I have been recommending no gap before seeing this video, but like I said I'm not a mig welder. No gap is best for gas torch and tig.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vl_fZdRGTdg

The best wire to use is ER70S-2, also called EASY GRIND. It will allow you to do some hammer and dolly work on the weld with less chance of cracking.

After the patch is welded in, grind the weld down close but not all the way to the metal. You have to understand that there will always be some shrinkage when welding, and that needs to be planished out to get a perfect fit. I use 3M Green Corps 3 inch X 3/16 weld grinding wheel on my cut off tool for this initial grind. A thin fiber disc will cause you some problems, and a grinder will remove metal.

Use firm pressure on the back side with a dolly that has a similar shape as the panel. The pressure should be like you are trying to push the weld out with the dolly, too little pressure will cause the hammer blows to push it in. Tap around lightly with the hammer until you hear the dolly ring, then increase the force of the hammer. This will stretch the metal, allowing the dolly to push it out to the proper shape. Don't use the hammer out side of the heat affected zone, all the distortion is caused by the shrinkage of the weld.

I use a non flexible straight edge to check progress and see where the low and high spots are. Keep checking in different directions to keep the over all shape correct. When the shape is correct, you will be able to file the rest of the weld off.
 
There are many ways to do this and most likely some are far better than others.
This one works the best for me.

Leave a gap a bit narrower than your wire, them spot as you did in pic2, Hammer the spots as you make them.
Just wait a couple minutes for the spot to cool.
During that time make a spot on the other end of the seam or such. When the spot has cooled you can see that the gap closed up a bit, now hammer and dolly the spot until the gap is where it was before the spot was made.
Get the seam into spots about 1" apart.
Then make your first overlap spots, make sure they are at least 1/3 on the existing spot. Grind ( take it down but leave it standing proud) and hammer each spot as you go and keep the gap.

To grind I find it easiest to use a die grinder with a cut off wheel in it and grind the tops off the spots parallel to the seam. Be careful to not grind the parent metal , just the high spot.

When you get the highs ground down, then you can grab a 40-60 grit 2" or 3" roloc disc and dress the weld down to flush. ( I prefer the 2", easier to keep track of the cutting area)

Try and keep the disc slightly tilted in the direction of the seam and grinding with the center of the arbor over the center of the seam so that only the lower side of the disc that is cutting is touching the metal directly of the centerline. (this is so hard to describe )
Imagine a clock dial and the center of the hands is the center of the roloc arbor.

The seam you are working on runs from 10:00 to 4:00. You will want the direction of travel on the grinder to follow the 10-4 direction with the center of the arbor over the seam line.

This keeps the lowest portion of the disc doing the cutting and helping to not take away metal from the parent metal.
Once you are close to good, then move off the center line with the arbor and use the portion of the disc that is traveling into the weld to do the cutting.
This helps me take less parent metal away as I work down that pesky edge of the weld .

When you "think" you are almost done, take a file and dress the area and see where the highs and lows are at.

I have used the 3M dry guide coat to help my old eyes see the work zone easier.
 
always check the weld really close after hammer work. the mig weld is notorious for cracking.
 
A 3M 3"x1/4" grinder disc mounted on a cutoff wheel tool makes fast work of those beads, I usually hit them with that to take off 90% of the bead height and finish it off with a 50 grit roloc. You should be able to get full penetration with a tight butt joint when the heat, wire speed, trigger time, and distance is right-and the welds will be flatter. If you switch to the easy-grind wire you'll find flow is also better.
 
I didn't mention before, but putting a radius----the bigger the better---on the corners of your patches will result in less heat buildup for the inside corners, which can sometimes cause a pucker.
 
Thanks for all the tips. I'm going to try these out and practice some more. I did some more work on the patches and they do look better. Good thing about these is they are kinda hidden. I need to get it right so that I can do quality work.
 
Your 4th photo shows full penetration on about 90% of the backside-that is decent. Try holding your gun's contact tip a little closer to the work and try a few different trigger pull times to see what works. Slight changes in wire speed and heat to dial it in. And about grinders-the trigger is variable so get accustomed to throttling it for the speed you want for more control-you probably already know this but a lot of newbies with a grinder think the trigger is just and on and off switch.
 
Bob Hollinshead;36897 said:
Your 4th photo shows full penetration on about 90% of the backside-that is decent. Try holding your gun's contact tip a little closer to the work and try a few different trigger pull times to see what works. Slight changes in wire speed and heat to dial it in. And about grinders-the trigger is variable so get accustomed to throttling it for the speed you want for more control-you probably already know this but a lot of newbies with a grinder think the trigger is just and on and off switch.

I find myself having problems holding a constant slow speed with air tools when in certain body positions.
My cure was to use one of the spray gun "regulators" that is not a regulator, it is a flow control. I put qd's on it and just plug it inline between the air tool whip and the supply hose. Real easy to set just the right speed, make is easy to hold the lever wide open with a tight grip on the tool .
 
Thanks Bob. My air hose has a Milton swivel on it. It has a flow control dial on it. I have gotten use to throttling the trigger and now just leave the flow wide open. I find myself mainly bogging the tool down quite a bit, just taking my time, checking progress as I go.

I have worked on the patches a little more. I'm amazed at what a little hammer and dolly will do. I do have a few voids that are very small. Seems I'm always getting some of these. They are very small. I checked for pin holes with a flash light and there was none. Not sure if I should hit them with the welder again or let the epoxy fill them?





Also on my grinding, I don't know if this was a problem or not, but my 2 inch roloc arbor was worn out. At first I thought it was kinda cool because I could use the edge of the roloc and bend it in tight places, but it may have been causing me to grind uneven. I put a new one on.



I have been grinding the initial weld down with a 3/16 cutoff wheel 89034 made by Norton.

 
Looking good. The 3m green corps stone will work a lot better and last a lot longer than that fibreglass disc.
 
I often brush a few coats of epoxy on small repair areas like that and then sand before applying epoxy to the whole panel, sometimes no more fill work is needed.
 
chevman;36902 said:
Looking good. The 3m green corps stone will work a lot better and last a lot longer than that fibreglass disc.

What is the 3M part number? thx!
 
e9356a85-62ae-4b57-b94b-2f1473c6104b_zps3c9c575c.jpg
 
Thank you, I was looking for a stone wheel, maybe because I am still in the stone age LOL.
 
Lots of good info here. Bob I never even thought about brushing in some of those areas first, good idea, Thanks. Chevman, I will give one of those stones a try. Thanks.
 
Ordered 5 of them for $27.50 shipped from USAPainterSupply - an ebay seller.
 
The 3M discs are fiber reinforced as well, but seem to hold up better than anyone else's. I like to get away from 3M as much as possible, but some things are just plain better than the rest, and these cutoff/grinding wheels are one of them. I use the 1989 and 1990 discs mostly, but the 1991 come in handy also.
 
Plenty of good suggestions already, I thought I'd add some thoughts...comments in blue

rustover;36880 said:
I would like to be able to weld sheet metal without anyone ever know it was done, but I'm a long way from that. I cut and made two patches for my rear inner fenders. These were very small patches. I used the setup chart with gas and .023 wire. I actually found it better to run the welder just a tad hotter with a faster wire speed. I got good penetration on my tacks, however on the back of the patch before grinding it down there were just a few areas that I could see the line where the two pieces of metal were butted up to each other. Once I ground the back side down, it looked ok.


Here is the first patch.




Nice job in trimming/fitment. I prefer the tight fitting, no-gap panels. When you get working on larger patches in low crown areas, I think you'll find that gaps equal more chance of movement, more chance of losing crown. I'll echo the comment about losing the sharp 90 corners. As your welds shrink, a tight inside corner gets those effects from two different directions, where the shrinking effects will compound in the inside corner, normally as a pucker that is a bit challenging to remove. A large sweeping radius helps to balance out the shrinking effects on either side of the weld, where the planishing efforts don't need to focus on puckers or deformity on one side only.









Hard to critique your weld dots with the fronts already ground down, but I think I would try just a touch more heat and feed speed. Reason being, it appears you may have had considerably more proud on the front that you still have on the back. I prefer just a slight bit more weld proud on the back side, that way when you planish the welds, the forces exerted in stretching the weld are on the weld alone, and not attempting to deflect the panel. A bit more heat and feed should get a bit more proud at the back, or more equal to the front, and you should be able to release the trigger sooner to limit the weld size. Given that, let's back up a step, I would have welded in about 1 or 2" spacing, and then planished each weld, and then ground down front and back to just above panel surface. Now you have a "clean slate" for planishing the next set of welds, nothing in the way. Lather, rinse, repeat.

And with any adjustments or tweaks to your methods, always cut some scraps and practice, in free air just like the panels on the car. Laying the sheet metal on a welding bench only serves as a heat sink, and will change your results..


Picture648.jpg



Having said all that, not that anything looks wrong at all with the results you've shown above, but with any attempts at larger patches and longer welds, these tweaks may help out in achieving better results in that regard.


Here is the second:






These are a good start, could be spaced a bit more, and they are about exactly what I'm referring to above. Enough proud on the back to insure planishing affects the weld and not a deflection of the panel. A bit more room between would give you more hammer/dolly room





On this picture, I would suggest to revert to what you were doing before this. Here you switched to a short pass to fill in between, and the speed gave you no proud on the back side. (Actually, comparing this to the rear view above, on the back you can still see the joint between the panels, so there is insufficient weld penetration, and the long weld passes on the front are really sitting tall, again, no weld penetration) Planishing, if this were a quarter panel, may result in moving the panel as there is no proud on the back side for the dolly. In most of anything I post, I try to emphasize consistency throughout. If you start with welding dots, do it from start to finish. Once you get your machine set up where the heat and wire feed are producing the weld penetration you're looking for, then you can control the weld size by elapsed time of trigger pull. Get all your gaps nice and tight as you have them, and you don't need large blobs of weld to span a big gap, adding more heat and shrinking. So any extra time spend to get the consistency in panel fitment as you show here is well worth it. When all of your methods from fitment, trimming, weld spacing, planishing efforts, weld overlap, etc. start to become an OCD issue, then you will have better consistency throughout, for better consistency in the results.



I'm a little worried about the backside. On the front you can still tell where I welded it at. I believe the second patch could use some more grinding, but I'm afraid I will take more metal off in the surrounding metal, thus making a weak repair. What do you guys think?


Not sure what you used to clean up the welds, it doesn't look too bad at all from here. The location of these patches lead me to believe that nobody will see you hard work regardless, but I always say these areas (floor pans especially) are the perfect places to practice/hone your skills for when you are working on that roof skin or quarter panel that everyone will notice. For dressing welds, I showed using cutoff wheels for grinding in the other post, where you get about the best view possible (unobstructed) so you can better remove any weld prouds without inadvertently striking the metal to the sides of the weld. Take the welds to about a gnat's ass above the surface of the metal and finish dressing with a 3" sander (roloc, etc.)


Lastly, I'm no expert, but these methods have produced fairly good results for myself and others that have used them. If you find they don't work well for you, use what does work. Mig welding sheet metal is not the best method to use, primarily due to all the planishing and grinding work afterward. But for those not using a Tig or O/A gas welding, you can get good consistent results with consistency in your methods.
 
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