What needs to move where? door/ fender question

N

NoobDude

I can see somethings needs to move but I don't know where... no this isn't a political comment.
It's a real cry for help. (and no I'm still not getting political)

In the pic you can see where the wow is at the left as it cuts the reflection of the light. I cut out and replaced that section right where the light is and about double the size before I took the fender off to keep things aligned.

DSC02001.JPG


I'm thinking I worked real hard to keep what was there and missed the chance to set it correct along the way which is fine as long as I can get there still from here.
Here being now I want to start blocking with the door and fender mounted but something tells me WOW I don't think so.

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https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-u-pjLxbD5YI/TwN1IjRUhwI/AAAAAAAAAoQ/qSPzWzR22Zk/s800/DSC01992.JPG

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Do I start bumping edges moving them both out to the plane line?
What sorts of bumpers would you choose?
Let the vot... cauccuuuu, suggestions begin

Thank you and good luck.
 
Is the gap at teh back of the door where you want it? It looks like it is. It also looks as though your gap tightens up at the bottom (fender to door). I think you will need to brake out the grinder to open the gap up. What does it look like if you put a straight edge on it? Remember guide coat is your friend.
 
fastwayfirebird400;15502 said:
Is the gap at teh back of the door where you want it? It looks like it is. It also looks as though your gap tightens up at the bottom (fender to door). I think you will need to brake out the grinder to open the gap up. What does it look like if you put a straight edge on it? Remember guide coat is your friend.
Click to expand...

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-_XNPFyJJT3M/TwN1JoEQvrI/AAAAAAAAAog/WgHtztRXS5M/s800/DSC01996.JPG

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KC4Rt1590oY/TwN1JA-VkwI/AAAAAAAAAoY/Vw5ZdPyz-6g/s800/DSC01994.JPG


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Sy8koJUB514/TwN1KNSy9DI/AAAAAAAAAok/xp14hTlK4b4/s800/DSC01997.JPG

I'm OK with the gaps its the hump on the back edge of the fender that's got me going... the two surfaces are not planing into each other as the straight edge shows. It varies from the hard edge line down and gets worse at the bottom with the fender rolling in.
I thought it had to do with clearing the fender originally.
 
How does the fender fit to the cowl? I can't remember if there's shims on that design but if there's a way to slide the fender up just a tick and pull the bottom of the fender down by adding shims it will take some bow out of the fender and might help to decrease that bulge just forward of the door. The alignment to the rocker also confirms the bottom might need to come down. And the body line appears to run downhill towards the front indicating the fender may need to go forward at the bottom rear corner. Is there support at the front of the fender? It needs to be supported in the front otherwise it will contort slightly just holding itself up. Start moving stuff around, if it fit before it will fit again.
 
Agree with Bob,

the fender needs to be pulled down as shown by the roocker misalignment, and the gap taper from top to bottom may be able to be sesolved by shimming the front of the fender up at the core support?
 
Bob Hollinshead;15508 said:
How does the fender fit to the cowl? I can't remember if there's shims on that design but if there's a way to slide the fender up just a tick and pull the bottom of the fender down by adding shims it will take some bow out of the fender and might help to decrease that bulge just forward of the door. The alignment to the rocker also confirms the bottom might need to come down. And the body line appears to run downhill towards the front indicating the fender may need to go forward at the bottom rear corner. Is there support at the front of the fender? It needs to be supported in the front otherwise it will contort slightly just holding itself up. Start moving stuff around, if it fit before it will fit again.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob,
Yes the fender has has 2 shims under it .
the bolts are in the top of the fender to the radiator/inner/fender at the headlight. nothing lower is set in front so I'll check that.
If you look at the light do you notice the edge/line that makes up the reflection of the light? Its a vertical line that's about 4 in long an inch to the right of the gap. There is a support brace behind that line and the edge towards the door curves inward around the vertical axis of brace close to 5/16. It looks to me like the edge of the fender needs to come out 5/16 to be in a straight line across that gap to the door but then I'd be looking at putting a wow in the door edge and it sights straight now.
I'll try adding some support and pushing the corner and see what happens.
Thanks again
 
You shouldn't do any bumping, grinding, or cutting, until you figure out what the problem is. It looks to me like the fender may have been out of adjustment and the door caught it and bent it in. And it may help the gap if the front of the fender goes out some to close the gap, that is in the middle of the door. I have a hard time with pictures, but it also looks like the very top of the fender has a gap problem. If you just have the metal with a single coat of epoxy its easier to see the damage.
As Bob said you need to make sure everything is firmly bolted and in adjustment, even the hood.
 
chevman;15513 said:
You shouldn't do any bumping, grinding, or cutting, until you figure out what the problem is.
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That's why I'm here and yes that sway that looks like it was pushed in by the door is what I'm talking about.
I'll set the fender/ raise the front as SOF suggested check the other suggestions mentioned and get it buttoned up in the morning... now that the 'lost for the last three months/torn the garage apart three times' bag of bolts are back in my hands instead of getting tossed out today still at the bottom of a jug of recycled batteries...
Lesson: if they get misplaced, even bagged and labeled won't save ya.
But starting the year out with their return is I hope a good omen.
 
NoobDude;15516 said:
Lesson: if they get misplaced, even bagged and labeled won't save ya.
But starting the year out with their return is I hope a good omen.
Click to expand...


Now I don't feel alone, I spent a couple hours on 2 seperate days looking for the bag of front suspension bolts for my Mustang. They were right where I had left them LOL.
 
taking a grinder to it to set gaps is about the dumbest thing you can do.

the door aligns to the cab. the hood aligns to the cowl . the fenders aligns to both. you cant move the door opening or the cowl so you have to align to them. the door gap at the fender is aligned by the core support .
 
Chevman Now THAT'S what I call helpful info. Talk about helping put things in perspective... honest apprehension.

SOF You are SO not alone...

Shine, I agree with your grinding assessment and note I started with asking for bumping/ moving advice and wouldn't you know it I've received just that. I know I can count on the folks on this forum for experienced advice.
Thank you one and all
I'll now go see how well I can follow it.
 
what happened to the fenders is somewhere along the line someone tried to set the door flush. not going to happen. the door will be out 1/8 of an inch front and back. it did not and never will fit flush. once the door is aligned you can make the fender match the crown but most likely will have to rework the edge. look at the brace inside the fender. it will give you the correct crown.
 
Shine is right, each of the panels on them old cars has their own crown. You can get the edges to align with some bending and shimming but unless you do some shrinking to reduce the overall crown you'll never be able to set a straight edge and have a perfectly flowing shape. I do think you can shim some of the bow out of that brace though and remove the bulge that's happening. That bulge is a result of stress. And if the patchwork was done on the car and alignment and shape was good then it is installed wrong now. If you remove the lower bolts does the bulge in front of the brace disappear or at least reduce?
 
Bob Hollinshead;15551 said:
Shine is right, each of the panels on them old cars has their own crown. You can get the edges to align with some bending and shimming but unless you do some shrinking to reduce the overall crown you'll never be able to set a straight edge and have a perfectly flowing shape. I do think you can shim some of the bow out of that brace though and remove the bulge that's happening. That bulge is a result of stress. And if the patchwork was done on the car and alignment and shape was good then it is installed wrong now. If you remove the lower bolts does the bulge in front of the brace disappear or at least reduce?
Click to expand...

The more I read about this next part of the process the the stormier the day got with one gust of " Re: 57 3100 Hood Alignment - 09/10/09 10:15 PM
Beleive me, there's not much worse than having to align body panels on a '55-'59 Chevy truck wink I still don't have mine exactly right" and a steady rain of images of a grinning chevman.
I was able to get the hinges mounted and hood down off the ceiling and onto the truck with the help of my son and then to help numb the dawning reality I turned to cleaning up bolts and proceeded to wear the wire wheel down to nuthin.
still wanting to do something I pulled it down off the jacks and moved it back some for more room around the front end.
Next I think I'll go ahead and pull the fenders then start at the radiator looking at whats shimmed then fully reassemble from step 1 instead of 4 or 5 or where ever this fender adjust would be, leaving things loose enough to move and work back up from there.

while I have the fender off I'll see what I can do to address that area but I'm letting go of the idea of a straight line through the area as this is still my first project and the shrinking stuff will have to wait.. If I can relax that line along the brace it may help with the curve it the rest of the panel as well. I'll see in a few days eh?
 
Start with the door to cab and work forward, but you have to keep checking everything. Its all tied together, once you get close then one change causes a chain reaction of changes. When you get it all right, then try and mark it someway if you intend to take it apart again.
 
these gaps are correct for a tri 5 truck. the fender to door gap is wide on these. otherwise you peel the weatherstrip off the door. there is very little adjustment on the doors . they have to fit in the hole. when gm designed these trucks they forgot the weatherstripping so the doors do not fit flush.almost done.jpg
 
OK the subject of order has me scratching my head...
I can see the doors as first because they really have to sit in the hole as Shine says and the fenders align to them.
I read over in the Stovebolt that the radiator core centers the front clip and it needs to be set first.
I can see how the Hood gets established against the cowl and the fenders moved then to fit it.
Then massage things from there.
And Yes Chevman I'll make alignment marks because I was going to take it back apart to paint but that leaves me with yet another question. I have all new rubber and bumpers but nothing is on yet. Do I install all them for this stage and then take them back off? It seemed they would be susceptible to getting messed up while sanding but I see how they would make a difference as well. No original rubber left to use instead in case that's the usual way.
If GM designed them without the rubbers and the doors rarely fit right anyway I'm not sure that leaves much room for me to be too finicky...
First I want to get it back up on stands and sitting even off the floor so I can measure accurately if/when need be. Then I guess try and establish some base lines to work from as mentioned, Cowl/Hood, Doors in the holes, Radiator core bracket.
Seem reasonable to you guys?
 
i set the doors first then assemble the front end. the core support will rock the front , raise it or move side to side. so when you set the hood that is when you align the fenders because the hood cant move . once you get the hang of shimming it's no big deal really. but i only do it once . i paint it , put on my seals and build it.
 
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