SPI Paint Products For Wheel Arch Repair

Jeez, I hate to change course in this thread but crash I have got to ask about a comment you made, as it is something I thought differently about. Your comment being, "and never apply filler on bare metal". Keep in mind, I don't know much and just asking to clarify, as I have read that filler could go on bare metal or over epoxy. In fact, it seems I read that the epoxy would be roughed with 80 grit prior to application of filler. Would you enlighten me here on this? I know you know your stuff and I like to know the why's to things.
Filler manufacturers will recommend that filler be used on clean, rough sanded bare metal. Most shops still do this, and it's pretty much the way most of us were taught. There's reasons for this, mainly that the filler makers can't control the quality of the coating on which the filler would be applied, so the safest thing for them is to specify bare metal.

BUT, filler is porous and does not inhibit corrosion, so it's not a great coating for metal. If a filler on metal job gets even a tiny, unnoticed chip, it can absorb moisture into the filler, and then the panel will begin to rust underneath the filler. This is a very common failure mode, the filler just turns into a dirty (salty, too, in some part of the country) wet sponge up against the metal. If epoxy is properly applied first, it creates a corrosion resistant barrier that won't allow that dirty wet sponge to touch the metal.
 
In the interest of educating on how NOT to do panel fitting, panel fabrication, or welding, I give you the poster child for POR15..


Post 119 on page 6 is especially inspiring when we get to the door pillar.. This is what someone paid $50 an hour for, per the poster. I'd be pissed. This documents the results of his craft as learned from his dad's "high end" restoration shop, "learning from "old-world" metal finishing fabricators and applying my own skills" Each of his projects looks the same, so at least there is consistency. Funny he never shows pictures of his work when he is trash talking someone else's opinion (like in the link John posted) or their work.. The pictures do not lie. Chris, this is why I cautioned from taking ANY advise from this individual. Perhaps less about the message, more about the credibility of the messenger. John, sorry for going off on a tangent...
 
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Jeez, I hate to change course in this thread but crash I have got to ask about a comment you made, as it is something I thought differently about. Your comment being, "and never apply filler on bare metal". Keep in mind, I don't know much and just asking to clarify, as I have read that filler could go on bare metal or over epoxy. In fact, it seems I read that the epoxy would be roughed with 80 grit prior to application of filler. Would you enlighten me here on this? I know you know your stuff and I like to know the why's to things.

In addition to Crash's excellent answer, another aspect of putting filler over epoxy is adhesion. It will stick to properly cured (24-48 hours after application @70 degrees minimum) unsanded epoxy much better than it will stick to metal. This results in something that is more chip resistant in the filler areas, in addition to the benefits Crash outlined. OEM Manufacturers have required for 20+ years that any filler go over epoxy but I have never seen any shop consistently do it (and I've worked at a few:)) Many guys in the profession don't even know to do it. Anything other than low end collision work (which hopefully I'm out of:)) I will not do it any other way.
 
In the interest of educating on how NOT to do panel fitting, panel fabrication, or welding, I give you the poster child for POR15..


Post 119 on page 6 is especially inspiring when we get to the door pillar.. This is what someone paid $50 an hour for, per the poster. I'd be pissed. This documents the results of his craft as learned from his dad's "high end" restoration shop, "learning from "old-world" metal finishing fabricators and applying my own skills" Each of his projects looks the same, so at least there is consistency. Funny he never shows pictures of his work when he is trash talking someone else's opinion (like in the link John posted) or their work.. The pictures do not lie. Chris, this is why I cautioned from taking ANY advise from this individual. Perhaps less about the message, more about the credibility of the messenger. John, sorry for going off on a tangent...

Interesting read, skimmed through it and the thing that sticks out to me is he is really proud of himself, which while not a bad thing in and of itself also condemns you to never getting any better. That and the people commenting have no idea what they are looking at. Honestly the work looks like so many of the guys I have worked with over the years. Typical collision shop work. Get it close enough, mud it and move on. Don't think I would want folks on the forums looking at those welds though. Feel for the body/paint guy looks like a lot of rust got left in that thing.
In the grand scheme of things though Robert, guys like you are the exception, guys like him are the rule. (that is meant to be a compliment:))
 
Ok fellas, I've spent several hours today making dots on cut up strips from the remains of my patch panel. I've welded with gaps and no gaps and I feel like I get the best welds with just a very slight gap. With that, I've figured out the settings on my Hobart Hander 140 that give me the best weld with good penetration for my particular patch material as well. Mr Long, you ready for this...….heat setting 4, feed setting 40...lol! Would never have thought and I do believe this generates less heat. Got the trigger pull time down and all. Weld looks as good on the back as it does the front. Yeah Robert, can't go by the machine settings on this.

In all this, I've also been grinding my welds down flush and something I've noted is that this is some hard dang metal to grind flush. See attached photo for what I'm currently using. Seems I've read somewhere that there is better welding wire for welding panels.....welds flatter and grinds easier. Can someone advise?

Lastly, any advice on Roloc discs for sanding these welds with? Not all sanding paper is equal.

Thanks


MIG Wire.png
 
You are referring to EZ Grind wire. It used to be made by ESAB but they have not made it in several years, as far as I know. I still have part of an 11 lb spool. In my opinion, it welds a little harder, grinds a little easier, but in the long run is not that much of an improvement and costs about $60 bucks for an 11 lb roll. One thing you will find is your welds will grind more easily as your welding gets better. A cold weld will be much harder (and more brittle) than a good hot weld that cools gently. Not to mention, you will have much less weld to grind as your welding improves.

John
 
You are referring to EZ Grind wire. It used to be made by ESAB but they have not made it in several years, as far as I know. I still have part of an 11 lb spool. In my opinion, it welds a little harder, grinds a little easier, but in the long run is not that much of an improvement and costs about $60 bucks for an 11 lb roll. One thing you will find is your welds will grind more easily as your welding gets better. A cold weld will be much harder (and more brittle) than a good hot weld that cools gently. Not to mention, you will have much less weld to grind as your welding improves.

John

John, my welds were pretty flat. In fact, my settings are borderline burn through on this material. I did however run a whole line of welds without grinding them individually as Robert is doing in his video. Maybe that is what I need to do.

Robert, I have a wider wheel and tried it, but it's junk. It sends debri all over the place and just tears it up while putting a lot of heat to the weld. Can you give specifics on that grinding wheel? Noted you said for stainless and that it is .035 thickness.

John
 
the video shows me grinding individually as that was a plug weld, but it’s still the same basic process. If doing a butt weld, start your first tack, go to next distance/space, align panels together and tack, go same distance, repeat until you reach end. When done with tacking in that sequence, planish each start to finish. When done that, grind each down front and back start to finish. Now start tacks again...


If your local/online source does not carry stainless rated cut off wheels find one that does. My local welding supply carries them. you likely have a brown cloud in the air when done. stainless rated cut off wheels will last 3-4 times as long and no brown cloud from cheap resin. Definitely a get what you pay for item.
 
@Machspeed 3M 1991, Norton Medallion 89034 are both good choices for weld grinding wheels. They both last a very long time. Used to only use the 3M 1991's but have since switched to the Norton Medallion 89034 and they last even longer than the 3M's. Both of those though are like 3/16" thick. I see Robert uses a thin one. Personally I like the thicker wheel when grinding welds but either thick or thin would be a good choice.

As for final sanding with a roloc type disc the ceramic ones last much longer than anything else. Robert posted a while back about switching to 3M Cubitron???? IIRC, I'm still using up several boxes of 3M GreenCorps rolocs which work well, but for the price don't last as long as they should.
 
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So yesterday, I welded up the right side wheel well and for the most part am pleased. Curious about the planishing affect, how much it opens up the weld and how much I have to work it to make that weld open up, I performed a little experiment.

I cut out the patch panel for a tight fit, spent a lot of time ensuring this actually. Was thinking at the time that no one could afford to pay me to do this, as they’d go broke. Anyway, after ensuring my fit, I used vice grip clamps to secure it into position. I then took my Dremel tool with a fine cut off wheel and cut four thin slits at the seam of the patch and the body, just enough to allow a panel alignment body clamp to slide through. The light in the back ground was turned on and you could just see it come through the gap between the patch and body. I attached all four body clamps along with the vice grip clamps, checked the fit, and started my spot welds. After welding, I could no longer see the light between the gaps. Also, the body clamps were very hard to remove. I ground the top of the welds relatively flush and planished them, all the time watching for light to make its way through the seam. I gotta say, it was pretty cool watching that gap open up with the planishing. Gotta feel too as to how I need to work the welds.

Two things that I need to do better, the first being the overlapping of my welds. I spaced overlapping welds too far apart. Also, too tight a gap is not good. There is a small issue down low on the right side of the patch that I could not planish apart. It was too tight initially. I should have opened it up just a smidge more before welding. No big deal, easy fix.

To surmise, I do like a tight fit over a wider fit, just easier for “me” to weld…..higher heat setting with appropriate feed and trigger pull equals low profile weld with full penetration. With the planishing, it is incredibly time consuming but yet very rewarding. Can't imagine this is done in production type work though. For the wider gap, at least for me, filling in those four wider areas where the body clamps were was more challenging and I made more heat in the process, despite increasing the feed and playing with the heat.

BTW, NO WARPAGE here!!! Right Wheel Arch 3.pngRight Wheel Arch 4.pngRight Wheel Arch 6.pngRight Wheel Arch 7.pngRight Wheel Arch 10.png

Robert, Chris, John, and others, thank you!

Happy Easter!!!
 
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