Paint lifting, wrinkling help

J

Jwagaman

New Member
7DD3E915-2BDB-4FC6-80EA-344195C0EC84.jpeg

As you can see I am having an issue with lifting. I took down to metal, used spi epoxy primer, spi 2k primer, Wanda base coat. I waited about 30 minutes between basecoats. This is only my 2nd coat of base as shown. I only used base and reducer, no activator. I did add about 10% more reducer. I tried not to put it on to wet but maybe that was my problem?? suggestions on how to fix? Sand, rebase?
thanks for all suggestions, love this forum. I always come here first for help.

jeff
 
  • Wow
Reactions: MJM
How long did you wait after 2k Primer to spray base coat?
Looks to me like there may have been some solvent still trapped in the 2k that began dissolving your base coat.
 
'68 Coronet R/T said:
Looks to me like there may have been some solvent still trapped in the 2k that began dissolving your base coat.
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I have never seen that. Don't think that's possible. I could be wrong though. Lifting/wrinkling is always from solvent in the coat being sprayed attacking what's underneath. Lifting like that occurs because what you are spraying is lifting the substrate. I can't ever recall basecoat wrinkling/lifting properly mixed 2K urethane primer. Most certainly it wouldn't lift epoxy. This assumes everything was mixed, applied, and allowed to cure properly.
Judging by the crazing throughout and the wrinkling it looks like a classic case of being applied over a lacquer or 1K finish. Like something from a spray can.
OP did you mix the epoxy correctly? Did you allow it proper time to cure? Did you mix the 2K correctly? Did you allow proper cure time before sanding? Only way I see this could happen is if there are errors in mix or not allowing enough cure time? Were you trying to use 2K urethane as a sealer? I.E. did you spray it, no sanding then shortly after spray the base?
 
Wow, what a mess; that dont look like wrinkling to me, but pictures can fool you.
It looks like water and oil built up in the hose and shot out???
 
If you still have any base left , repete the same process on a tin can or sheetmetal that is bare metal. Mybe and just maybe the jobber added something in the Wanda mix ??????????? But like Chris said most offen trapped solvent. Let us know
 
I had something like that happen many years ago when I applied HOK base over HOK Koseal sealer that I applied too heavy in a spot on the back of a decklid.

Don
 
'68 Coronet R/T said:
How long did you wait after 2k Primer to spray base coat?
Looks to me like there may have been some solvent still trapped in the 2k that began dissolving your base coat.
Click to expand...
Because of the heat being in the 90’s I actually waited a few weeks, now it’s only in the 80’s, then I sanded the 2k before base coat. I did mix epoxy and 2k according to directions. After reading many post on the forum I made sure I waited correct cure time Plus a little extra. I did clear water from lines before but don’t know how to check on the oil in the lines. Maybe I’ll put a new water separator at the gun on,

wait times
epoxy 30-60 mins between coats
2k 20-30 mins
basecoat 25-35 mins
days between each steps. plus sanded 2k before base coat.

im thinking maybe I didn’t do the best sand job as someone mentioned?

How to fix?
just sand flat to 2k then reapply?

thank you again for all your wisdom!

jeff
 
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I've had that spray condition happen before using some rattle-can Krylon paint, and only Krylon paint, no primer used. Going from memory, the paint can instructions said to wait 15 minutes before recoating but, must recoated within the hour of spraying 1st coat. If not sprayed within the hour, you had to wait 24 hours before recoat.

I got busy with something else and went over the hour recoat window, and resprayed a couple hours later to have the same results as the OP. My point to this story is your base coat of paint attacked itself.

Re-read your base coat instructions for mixing, reducing and flash times.

Looks like a small part so, to fix I would sand back down to 2k and reapply
 
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i know you said you waited days between steps but something that would cause that is the epoxy not being cured under your 2k. you then shoot the base and it swells up the 2k and wrinkles because the epoxy is still soft and the 2k has nothing solid to really lock on to. if alot of coats or very heavy coats of epoxy are applied with not alot of flash time it can take many days for it to stiffen up and cure out. if 2k is applied and epoxy is not cured well then the epoxy will soak up the solvents from the 2k and rewet it making it super soft and gummy again. the 2k is then sealing the solvents in the epoxy keeping it soft for an extremely long time.

1 how many coats of epoxy were put down?
2 how long did the epoxy sit before you applied 2k?
3 are you sure you mixed the epoxy at the right 1:1 ratio?
 
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Chris_Hamilton said:
I have never seen that. Don't think that's possible. I could be wrong though. Lifting/wrinkling is always from solvent in the coat being sprayed attacking what's underneath. Lifting like that occurs because what you are spraying is lifting the substrate. I can't ever recall basecoat wrinkling/lifting properly mixed 2K urethane primer. Most certainly it wouldn't lift epoxy. This assumes everything was mixed, applied, and allowed to cure properly.
Judging by the crazing throughout and the wrinkling it looks like a classic case of being applied over a lacquer or 1K finish. Like something from a spray can.
OP did you mix the epoxy correctly? Did you allow it proper time to cure? Did you mix the 2K correctly? Did you allow proper cure time before sanding? Only way I see this could happen is if there are errors in mix or not allowing enough cure time? Were you trying to use 2K urethane as a sealer? I.E. did you spray it, no sanding then shortly after spray the base?
Click to expand...

Early on, I had put a 3 of coats of 2k on without waiting long enough between coats. The outer coat looked dry but had trapped solvents in the lower coats. When I shot my first coat of base it blistered. Granted, it didn't wrinkle like his but I thought that could've been the cause.
 
Jwagaman said:
How to fix?
just sand flat to 2k then reapply?
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Take a razor blade lift and peel blistered area. The bottom layer will show where it started to lift. Layer is soft and strong solvent smell will be trapped. My guess is between the epoxy and 2K, where problem #2 JimC called for. Make sure the soft areas are removed and sanded before 2K reapplied.
 
this happened yesterday about 7:00 pm.

I went out this morning to sand down and it looks like the epoxy and the 2k primer are all still in good shape. Of course u can’t see the epoxy but when I sanded the area it was just the base coat that lifted/wrinkled. I take that as a good sign.

Jim I heard you and Barry repeatedly say make sure u allow plenty of time for the epoxy to cure so I did. I’d say at least 2 weeks and probably longer. I did a light sand before 2k, I did 2 coats of epoxy and probably 4 coats of 2k.

I hope u don’t mine if I ask another question since I now have it sanded and ready to paint some more basecoat. My plan is to touch up the areas I just sanded that were wrinkled. Then to apply 2 more coats of base.

Would you recommend waiting a few days and then scuffing base coat before I apply my next 2 coats of base?
specs say for Wanda base apply within 24 hours. After 24 hours resand current base coat. then apply new basecoat.

since I had issues with my current basecoat would your advice be to wait a few days to make sure all is cured or it’s ok to respray and then clear after a couple hours to cure base?

thank u so much for ur help!

jeff
 
2 weeks would be more than enough and probably to much actually for just a light sanding. you could end up with an adhesion issue of your 2k to epoxy. with a typical evenly applied, 2 med coats of epoxy application, try to get something on it in 24-48 hrs. after that you start to lose adhesion because the epoxy becomes too chemical resistant. if primer os going over the epoxy you can extend that time a couple more days but in summer months i would never go more than 3 days before getting the 2k on it. the more coats and heavier its applied the longer the wait.

concerning the wrinkling, i have never in my life seen a polyester basecoat like wanda or any brand wrinkle. its not a catalyzed product. wrinkling is always from a catalyzed layer under it. i have wanda in my shop and use it every day. never had that happen.
 
hmmm not sure i would agree with don on this one. spotting epoxy ior even 2k in over the sanded out area you have now, letting it set up, sanding smooth and applying more base over it will open yourself up to more wrinkling. the solvents will creep under the edges of the epoxy and start wrinkling the epoxy up. remember epoxy is catalyzed, base is not. the base will soak up solvents and the epoxy will be getting hit from both sides. get the base area down to some clean primer then spot in more base to get it covered then blend out a couple more coats to feather everything in.
 
Jim C said:
hmmm not sure i would agree with don on this one. spotting epoxy ior even 2k in over the sanded out area you have now, letting it set up, sanding smooth and applying more base over it will open yourself up to more wrinkling. the solvents will creep under the edges of the epoxy and start wrinkling the epoxy up. remember epoxy is catalyzed, base is not. the base will soak up solvents and the epoxy will be getting hit from both sides. get the base area down to some clean primer then spot in more base to get it covered then blend out a couple more coats to feather everything in.
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I deleted my response… :). Your experience is different from mine but I always defer to the pros. :)

Don
 
Its all good don. You could have left it. The two things i have learned about paint is there is never just one way to do something and its never too late to learn something new. Have multiple view points on a subject is always good
 
Jwagaman said:
View attachment 22009
As you can see I am having an issue with lifting. I took down to metal, used spi epoxy primer, spi 2k primer, Wanda base coat. I waited about 30 minutes between basecoats. This is only my 2nd coat of base as shown. I only used base and reducer, no activator. I did add about 10% more reducer. I tried not to put it on to wet but maybe that was my problem?? suggestions on how to fix? Sand, rebase?
thanks for all suggestions, love this forum. I always come here first for help.

jeff
Click to expand...

So you added 10% more reducer than the technical data sheet specified. That's not a game changer unless when you where spraying the paint you weren't getting the coverage you desired, so you laid it on thicker, waited the 30 minutes and laid down your 2nd coat before the first coat was fully flashed.

Could this be what happened?
 
MJM said:
So you added 10% more reducer than the technical data sheet specified. That's not a game changer unless when you where spraying the paint you weren't getting the coverage you desired, so you laid it on thicker, waited the 30 minutes and laid down your 2nd coat before the first coat was fully flashed.

Could this be what happened?
Click to expand...
That could be. This is only the third time I painted a car. It’s a 1974 TR6 That I am restoring.
 
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