Opinions on waterborne

Chris_Hamilton

Trying to be the best me, I can be
Our PPG rep recently had a get together at our local jobber and they were pushing the various waterbourne systems they have. They showed a video with Charley Hutton talking about the PPG Envirobase system that he uses. I got to say that I'm interested. Colors are more vibrant, supposedly a very quick dry time, no dealing with solvent issues. What am I missing? Seems like a good idea. What are the drawbacks with waterbourne? Supposedly Envirobase dries quickly even with a standard type spray booth. Easier to spray, metallic is supposed to lay down better. Seems like it would be a no brainer. Barry, Crash, Jim what are your thoughts?
 
In high humidity conditions it will never be as fast as solvent, or to even call it fast drying is a stretch if you don't have a decent spray booth.

I've used it a few times in small cross draft booths, but only with smaller jobs, 3 or 4 panels at most. You'll need a high CFM blower and maybe even a heat gun at times.

Denibbing wasn't too terrible, but it will never be as easy to fix as solvent base.

Coverage was decent in most colors I've tried. Metallic control is good, but you still have to pay attention to your technique.

Cleaning the spray gun is an absolute bitch, I have to completely disassemble my gun to make sure all the latex crud is out, otherwise that crap turns to rubber glue inside your gun.

It's worth a try, see how you like it compared to solvent.
 
We have a big jobber close to you in another state, pressure was put on by paint company, so they went their to four biggest dealers and gave free system, with in one month they all kicked it out, the paint company rep said he will never push again. Oh did I say they all got about $10,000 of free driers for each paint booth. With out the driers you are screwed unless you live in desert.
 
The absolute biggest drawback to waterborne paint is the clear. From what I tried, it does not spray clear, you cannot spray to clear like you are used to with the solvent, you are basically spraying a coat of off white on top of your car. Second drawback is you need more air flow since its heavier to paint and more will land on the floor than going in the filters. Yeah, I know, no big deal change a pulley size and you are good to go, but in shops where you have a dusty environment outside the booth, its just more air to get sucked in and dust along with it.
 
I know not all waterbornes are created equal, there are some that I hear very good reviews of from experienced hands. I will try Standoblue when it becomes available in my area, but that is a long way off. The humidity here is almost always really low, and I have always waited a long time to clear, so I don't see it being a big problem.

@anotheridiot, I don't believe we are talking about waterborne clear coats for auto refinish use. The waterborne is in the base only. The primers and clears for these systems are still the solvent borne high solids type.
 
My previous job at the dealership, we only used PPG Envirobase. We started using it when it came out, we had as much experience with is as the PPG instructor. I worked with it almost on a daily basis. When we first started we hated it. But now, I don't hate it. It has it's ups and downs just like solvent borne. We were using it in a temperature controlled downdraft paint booth, first with handheld dryers on pedestals, later on fixed dryers set in the paint booth corners. I came to prefer using a single hand held dryer, as it caused less turbulence in the booth and had less dust, also I was able to concentrate on areas that took longer to dry.

Advantages: covers a lot better than solvent borne, metallics lay down a lot better, matches are better, it tends to be less aggressive on burn troughs (no solvent), single reducer required.

Disavantages: longer to dry even in ideal conditions, denibing is a little bit more tricky (but we get used to it with time), cost (maximum reduction is 30%, when compared to 100% to a solvent base), gun maintenance different (complete disassembly required after white base), more dust in paint (basecoat stays open longer and requires air movement to dry), color matching very difficult as paint color changes a lot when it dries, basecoat can't be catalysed.

They have a waterborne primer, it doesn't mix with hardener, it is only reduced with waterborne reducer. It is a DTM, it doesn't build a lot, but it is ready to sand in 30 min. air dry, very long pot life. It doesn't sand nicely. They also have a waterbourne clearcoat, my rep said it's only to have a complete line, they don't push it, it absolutely has to be baked to dry, never tried it or seen it in action.

Currently, I use only their basecoat when I know it's a tricky color (tri coats). I used it in a cross draft, and only have one hand held dryer, but I don't paint 4 cars a day, and I take my time. It requires some time to get used to it, and once that done, work comes out as good if not better than solvent borne.
 
My experience and opinion I used spies water for a while advantages are as you stated but when I went to two tone it says you must add hardener which I would assume is a solvent type product when I asked why they said tape would pull it off if that's the case it told me adhesion was garbage so I went back to solvent and I'm not sure but our bodies absorb water and reject solvent so imo worse for health
Also I used to two tone spies solvent all the time without activator no tape dmg with water it did pull I had to try
 
We have a big jobber close to you in another state, pressure was put on by paint company, so they went their to four biggest dealers and gave free system, with in one month they all kicked it out, the paint company rep said he will never push again. Oh did I say they all got about $10,000 of free driers for each paint booth. With out the driers you are screwed unless you live in desert.

Agree 100% the same has happened here and we did not bite at all. I laughed at them when I asked OK how much for the drying towers that go in each corner of the booth? They said $15K each and tried to up sell the idea, I politely looked at them with the look of I'm gonna punch you in the face if you don't leave. There was a small few that did and they went back to solvent, dry times are far better.

There is absolutely no good reason financially why someone would make that type of investment especally if they all ready have a booth, the return on their investment will never come I don't care what they say.
 
The T492 caused more problems than it solved. We never had delaminating issues, but the T492 cause some "solvent" popping.
For 2 tones, it really had to dry a long time before taping.

I live in Canada, and the only offering from the big brands for basecoat, in their higher end is all waterborne now. I think that if you aren't forced by a regulation, it's not worth the investment and the time required to adjust to the change.
 
I've tried both ppg and glasurit. My opinion is they are pretty lame. I live is SC and it's 80%+ humidity here most of the time. Drying times are terrible, correcting nibs, problems is more difficult. I can't imagine choosing waterborne unless forced.
 
I have been in a booth that one of my manufacturing reps had and it would do anything you needed to paint it even had surround sound stereo built in, aside from the stereo system that unit installed cost over $150k now that is one huge nut to Crack for a room to spray a vehicle in do the math and figure how much you will save with that investment take that savings and pay on only that one item (not including any maintenance you will have) and you exceed your own life expectancy. Oh and don't forget you buildings insurance just went up too.
 
friend of mine that has a shop here had diamont. switched to envirobase. he can only use it in the winter when the humidity is lower and even then it kinda sux. he gave it his best shot for a couple years but now it just sits there and he refuses to use it.
 
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