Lacquer takes off DPLF?

W

wmfmontrose

I started on my '69 Mustang in 1985 after buying it from a high school girl for $500. It needed work. A complete repaint including all the usual body work needed on a car that had a pretty active past. Full quarters were not available then so there were several patches on both rear quarters. I fixed what I could (I’m a machinist, not a body guy) and I used DP40 on everything and PPG products on top. Finished with Deltron and the paint was almost perfect 30 years later when I got the car back from my daughter. By the time I finished taking off the sheet metal I didn't like all I had left was a 200 pound roof and cowl. I did keep the original front fenders and one door. Everything else is new Taiwan sheet metal, I got it all back together and spent a lot of time with the hammer and dolly so there was very little filler needed.
I used DP40LF on all outside sheet metal thinking it was still the best but just read Shine's comment that DP40LF comes off with lacquer thinner!! I tried it and it does. What? I thought Epoxy primer should not come off with anything short of sand blasting. Now all my perceptions of doing the right things are shot.

The body is straight, all outside parts were sanded to remove all the weld through primer and E-coat with 80 grit, DP40LF, Eastwood short strand fiberglass filler, Eastwood Urethane 2K primer surfacer, Eastwood Contour Polyester high build primer surfacer. Occasionally I used a little USC Gold Finishing Glaze on low spots and at this point everything is 95% blocked. The roof was damaged removing the Deltron with wet sand blasting but nothing a few days of pecking didn't fix. That's where most of the hi-build primer went.

My plan, after reading most of this forum, is to Seal everything with SPI Epoxy Primer full strength, light wet sand, then paint. The problem I have now is mental.

Will the DP40LF hold up in the long term like the DP40 did? The original DP40/Deltron held up spectacularly for 30 years of Colorado weather. It's been an outside car most of its life in -20 to 110 degrees and only a few filler pops. I'm just so paranoid now. I read about SPI primers in the other forums but until I got here I didn't understand the real difference. DP40LF coming off with lacquer thinner? Crap! Maybe all new primers are this way, don't know?

So, the question is, will all this stay on the car with the DPLF as a foundation and can I put the SPI Epoxy Primer over all this to seal it? Hopefully better late than never. Winter is just starting so it will be sitting and curing for a few months before it's painted. After working on this for the last 6 months full time I really don't want to sand it all off and start over with SPI Epoxy Primer but.....

Anything in all this that just screams I screwed up?
 
dplf is junk . putting spi over it wont change it. i used dp epoxy for years but when they changed it i looked elsewhere. i would remove all of it period . k36 is junk also .
it's not your fault. those assholes who still spew that crap are to blame. we knew years ago it was just sealer 70 relabeled but the wannbes just keep swearing it is the same as spi epoxy.
 
Damn, didn't want to hear that.
I expected it, but still didn't want to hear it.
Thanks Shine.
So basically, and I know this is a silly question on this forum, If I stick with SPI products from steel to sealer I should not have to worry about the paint falling off in another 30 years when I'm gone. I'm not doing this again! :)
Thanks again. This is without a doubt the most informative forum I've found on paints.
 
since we can not delete post here i will just say you will get no more help from me. i figured you would troll around until you got the answer you wanted to hear.
 
Shine, take it easy, please. I have months into this already and I'm trying to decide what to do. I appreciate your input, I've read most of your posts and I know you have lots of experience. Idrivejunk sounds like he has lots of posts/experience too so I have one against and one for DPLF. Then I find a post in October from idrivejunk that says he has tried to convince his boss to use SPI instead of the "crappy" DPLF. That counters the one vote for DPLF. This is how we who are not experts learn. We have to filter all the opinions on the web. I know you have your own shop and now I know idrivejunk works for a shop. There is a difference there. I've had my own business for a long time and I understand the weight that adds to the opinions. Everyone on the web has opinions. The challenge is to weed through all the ones that just talk. I'm going to order some SPI epoxy primer Monday and start in on this again. If I work on this the way I usually do it will all be on the floor the next day. I would never buy DPLF again but I'd like to know what the issues will be with the DPLF on the car now. As idrivejuink implied PPG must sell a ton of DPLF and it has to work somewhere but what have you seen to make you so dead set against it? I was never very good at the just do what I say and don't ask questions thing. I need to know why. I do understand the SPI line of thinking and I'm on board and that's what I'm buying but I was headed back here to ask you what you thought would happen to the paint with DPLF as a foundation. Parts of it I'm taking off for sure but other parts maybe not. If this were not email and I was standing in front of you you would probably automatically mention all the bad experiences you've had with DPLF and in that respect email sucks. I certainly don't want to tick anyone off on this forum. I like it. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.
 
dplf has been around for a long time and its been the same the whole time. i have heard that it wipes off with lacquer thinner for atleast 10 years now. epoxy is typically some of the most chemical resistant coatings out there so im not sure whats up with the dplf and why its so weak. you may or may not have an issue in the long road but the real questions is..... is it something you really want to take a chance with. removing it now will be far easier and cheaper than doing it later. just remember that your paint job is only as strong as the weakest layer. spi or any other epoxy or paint over it wont help the situation and make it stronger. the epoxy is supposed to be your foundation.
 
Thanks Jim,
I've about decided to break out the 80 grit and go to town. It's pretty unanimous that DPLF has too many problems. I've gone back several years on many threads and it's about 10 to 1, grind it off. I do appreciate your input. The only reason I'm doing this restore this time is rust taking out the Deltron paint, that was still pretty after 30 years, so paint falling off is not something I am willing to take a chance on. Thanks again.
 
Jim C said:
dplf has been around for a long time and its been the same the whole time. i have heard that it wipes off with lacquer thinner for atleast 10 years now. epoxy is typically some of the most chemical resistant coatings out there so im not sure whats up with the dplf and why its so weak. you may or may not have an issue in the long road but the real questions is..... is it something you really want to take a chance with. removing it now will be far easier and cheaper than doing it later. just remember that your paint job is only as strong as the weakest layer. spi or any other epoxy or paint over it wont help the situation and make it stronger. the epoxy is supposed to be your foundation.
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Yeah, I agree too. :(
So for shopping list for the next round I'm looking at;
SPI WGR water based
SPI WGR solvent based
SPI epoxy primer
Rage Ultra ??
Ever Coat Metal glaze ??
SPI Turbo Hi build

Wife is not too happy.
Will all these be acceptable and compatible? They seem to be the ones that are mentioned the most. I'm in a small town so everything is UPS anyway. I already have most of this in Eastwood but I guess that was convenient but not good. I'll save it for my Jeep next year.
 
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all looks good on the list. i have never tried the rage ultra but im sure its fine. also, havent used turbo primer in years. i always use spi high build primer. if you prefer the turbo then that will work just fine as well.
 
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I've never used any of them. 30 years ago I used PPG for everything and lately Eastwood. Nothing in between so I'm trying to get what works now. What do you suggest for filler? Thanks
 
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Eastwood stuff for the most part is junk. And you pay more for it than comparable products at your local jobber. Evercoat Rage Ultra is the easiest sanding one out there, Quantum would be another good choice. Stay away from USC Base/Clear (in the past they had issues with this one). Other USC may be ok but personally I feel the best fillers out there are made by Evercoat.

If you use the Rage Ultra don't use the Metal Glaze over top of it. Metal glaze sands harder than the Rage which will cause issues. They make a complementary glaze for Ultra.
 
that's the info I needed, thanks Chris. About everything I have that is Eastwood will be dust on the floor in a day or two. :)
 
DP40 was good stuff. I remember my grandfather in law buying 1 gallon of the DPLF when he could no longer get the regular dp40. That was the only one he bought. Couldn't sand the stuff and it sprayed different. Eventually that led to me finding SPI epoxy.

I like the Turbo for the 1 in 5 jobs I do that aren't all epoxy. Sprays and sands good, but so do all the SPI primers.
 
You can put 100% trust in that this sites members will never mislead you in any way. While some techniques might differ they are tried and true and will result in a job you can be proud of and will last for years.

I quit using the "NEW" PPG epoxy when they changed it, something about them changing such a good product and saying it was improved just rubbed me wrong so I quit using it, I guess I smelled B.S..
 
PPG is not stupid and if they were they would not be so big.
Wheres the money at? Is it the restoration shop that is doing framework, electrical and painting a car a month or is it the big production shops such as one in NC that's buying $400,000 to 500,000 a month?

We have a chain of car dealerships using all our stuff and have for about 15 years and because that car company says "if warranty work you must put all filler over epoxy" and because of that they use epoxy as a sealer before all paint as it has proven to eliminate a lot of comebacks.
Problem with the SPI because it is made for strength and they wait about 60 minutes to apply a base over it, now the PPG they could apply the base in as I understand it in 15 minutes. I have recommended that they consider the LF for this type of work to speed things up but they were burnt years ago putting filler over the LF and refuse to consider the suggestion.

Bottom line, chemical resistance, and strength are not gained by speed in any product.

If speed was the answer every production shop would be using the 30 min buff clears but is it kind of funny they stop after about 6 months when they happen to see a car they did 4 or 5 months ago? I have heard this 100"s of times on the tech line.
 
Barry said:
PPG is not stupid and if they were they would not be so big.
Wheres the money at? Is it the restoration shop that is doing framework, electrical and painting a car a month or is it the big production shops such as one in NC that's buying $400,000 to 500,000 a month?

We have a chain of car dealerships using all our stuff and have for about 15 years and because that car company says "if warranty work you must put all filler over epoxy" and because of that they use epoxy as a sealer before all paint as it has proven to eliminate a lot of comebacks.
Problem with the SPI because it is made for strength and they wait about 60 minutes to apply a base over it, now the PPG they could apply the base in as I understand it in 15 minutes. I have recommended that they consider the LF for this type of work to speed things up but they were burnt years ago putting filler over the LF and refuse to consider the suggestion.

Bottom line, chemical resistance, and strength are not gained by speed in any product.

If speed was the answer every production shop would be using the 30 min buff clears but is it kind of funny they stop after about 6 months when they happen to see a car they did 4 or 5 months ago? I have heard this 100"s of times on the tech line.
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It was said once "appeal to the rich live with the masses, appeal to the masses live with the rich". That same rule applies here where as a business (especially big business) you go where the money is, their main concern is stacking their bottom line because of the investors, CEO's etc. The demand of their masses wanted faster and they provided it. I'm just glad SPI follows a different set of standards and make it work so they can make a living without having to cut corners and sacrifice quality for quanity.

I have no worries on that kind of speed when a special project is being done, but on insurance work time is everything and just will not allow that kind of wait time, not that I use PPG epoxy on those either, insurance work is tight and doesn't allow for such cost.
 
my thinking on the dplf is maybe they were trying to make it weak so that basecoat will bite into it and you dont have to worry about recoat windows or anything like that BUT doing so i think you compromise the product to the point that its no better than self etching primer.
 
Looking at the poop sheet for DPLF, the re-coat windows are about the same as every other epoxy primer I've seen but, in my opinion, if it comes off with lacquer thinner it's not epoxy. If it comes off with anything, short of sandblasting, it's not epoxy. At $140/qt x3 this has been an expensive and educational experience.
 
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