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Kirker black diamond base

#21
From what I am trying to remember from a friend who used to be a ppg rep, reactive reducer had some sort of hardner in it. Trying to remember from 1990s here so I could be wrong. I don't know anything about your other question. I've never sprayed the base in question.
Thanks I am not sure but that is what I think too. I wonder what Berry would say about this?
 
#23
I think what he is saying is any base is the weak link in a base/clear system, and using an inferior base is not going to be corrected by using quality undercoats and clear. There are cheaper undercoats and clears to use on an inexpensive paint job if that is what you're going for. No sense in spending the money on some of the system and skimping on others. More than likely any clear will delam over that base, SPI included, and they probably don't want their name associated with it. And yes, DRR reducer had a catalyst in it. Never understood why they went to DBC. I always thought DBU was a superior base, maybe because of the catalyst.
 

elwood

Registered Users
#24
I'd stick to the Kirker primer and clear if you are using their base.
In early 1990s my bro-in law was a jobber that sold ppg and R-M Basf. When a DIYer would come in to buy paint for painting their first car and didn't know what to use, he always told them to buy everything from the same manufacturer. This made it easier for them to not have any problems. If they did have issues it could be easily tracked down. The pros who do this stuff every day know what can be mixed and what cannot be mixed. That knowledge only comes thru experience. Some issues don't show up for months.
 
#25
Thank For the last couple post. Ok I guess I need to give a little more info. When I do rust repair and some would call my wagon project a major rust repair project. I expect anything I repair the rust on to last a long long time . Like 25 to 30 years longer than when the car was new. A lot of this is doing a good rust repair job . Most of making it last longer than from the factory is prepping it and protecting it with good materials. So it will receive a good coating of SPI epoxie on the outside and inside. The inside will then get some type of paint over the epoxie and then coated with rustproofing. I have had good luck with rustfree in the past. The outside will get SPI primer surfacer. This should protect it pretty well. The roof will get the same treatment and will be painted with house of color silver white pearl. This was some leftover from another job. Then will get SPI universal clear on top of it. Back to the bottom of the car. I would like a good base coat on top of the primer surfacer but money has been tight for a couple of years. So the project has stalled and I am not getting any younger. So today I played with tinting the Kirker base.. I am happy with the color.. If I had to just put the base on with no clear I would be happy with the look. I know most think of Kirker as being crap. But if the base whent to hell the car would not turn back into a rust bucket. I even thought about putting a mat finish clear on the blue part of the car. If the Kirker goes to hell I would end up sanding the clear and paint down to the primer surfacer reprime block and repaint. This is a way to get the car on the road again for everyone in the family to enjoy if they want to take it for a drive. My main concern is the clear flaking off. Yes lots of folks say Kirker is bad but have never used it. Its bad because some one knows some ones brothers cousin said it was bad stuff. On the other hand I know all the Omni and shopline products are junk because I have used them. My Idea of good paint is 20 plus years of no care use and sitting out in the weather and still have most of it on the car. If it get faded that's not a problem to me. Not a show car but I take pride in my work. I look at the topcoating as a minor inconvenice compared to rust repair.
 
#27
This doesn't help you but years ago I shot a 49' Ford truck with Kirker SS. It went over SPI epoxy and still looks nice. Budget job for a friend. I didn't have any problems but I wouldn't use it again.

This isn't the best forum for this type of question. Most of us strive for the best quality with price being of no concern. We help when we can but most of us don't have experience with low end paint lines. I think it's to hard of work to not use the good stuff.

I have an old boss that calls me often to pick my brain on problems. He hardly ever goes to the paint store, just mixes old Napa with Nason for base with whatever reducers he can find on the shelp and wonders why he always has reactions. He does rust repair jobs for people as he's mostly retired. I have him using SPI but It's probably a waste because he sprays it over garbage. I enjoy my conversations with him but shake my head when it's over. Being cheap causes him more sleepless nights than anyone I've ever met.
 
#28
The biggest difference with Kirker Black Diamond is it is the only base I have seen that ACTUALLY HAS ITS OWN ACTIVATOR. We have a bunch of professionals that use quality paint and then add a capful of activator in it when it is not designed to take activator. That is why Black diamond bites hard so I cannot believe you will have any problem unless it is not mixed properly. As far as how you are doctoring the paint, that is what will ruin a 1000 dollar base anyway, no no sense buying a brand name. I hope you mean candy pearls, metallics and not other bases as your blending agents, but I think Kirker is a step above most "cheap" bases.

As far as expecting 30 years out of a rust repair on old stuff, that is what is asking for alot. Either way, my belief is you put your money in the clearcoat since that is what is protecting any base.
 
#29
Thanks again guys. This is more along the line on the answers I was looking for. I am not just looking for the answer I want to hear. If some one said It would delam I would hope they could back it up with some kind of reason it would. Not because some ones uncles cousins brothers girlfriends ex boyfriends friend said it would.
Anotheridiot So I was thinking Kirkers activator is reducer with a hardener . But they also sell some kind of basecoat converter. Could it be some other mix of stuff?

I wanted to add my doctoring up was to add some silver paint front there same line of paint. So everything should be ok there.
 
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#30
The universal will stick just fine but do yourself a big favor and clear the base the next day.
Barry What is the reason for a newer paint job delam within 2-3 years? And how about much older ones. Like 10 15 years with factory and or repaints?

Would you be willing to take a guess on what the activator for Kirkers basecoat is? This is for there Black Diamond line.
 
#31
Thanks again guys. This is more along the line on the answers I was looking for. I am not just looking for the answer I want to hear. If some one said It would delam I would hope they could back it up with some kind of reason it would. Not because some ones uncles cousins brothers girlfriends ex boyfriends friend said it would.
Anotheridiot So I was thinking Kirkers activator is reducer with a hardener . But they also sell some kind of basecoat converter. Could it be some other mix of stuff?

I wanted to add my doctoring up was to add some silver paint front there same line of paint. So everything should be ok there.
I dont know what the coverter is, it sounds ass backwards, that you take their ultra glo single stage, and put the stuff in so it flashes fast for clear coat so it turns the single stage to base coat clear coat. The name would make you think you are converting a basecoat color to single stage.

We got the black diamond to spray samples of finding colors. Then we got the deep blue when we repainted a chevy/suzuki tracker we got for my other son last winter because we did not want the exact match to the camaro. Sprayed fine, no delamination. Even if the activator is reducer and hardener and ends up being the same as a capful of someones hardener is basecoat, it flashes so fast I know it is doing something.

Which silver do you have? I have yet to open a can of quicksilver that we were going to base over the chevelle and hopefully just mask rally stripes before candying to the orange we are looking for. Just not wanting to break the gallon open if its gonna be this winter before the paint is going on.
 

elwood

Registered Users
#32
From what I've been told by various people is that the isocyanate in the activator is what allows it to dry/set up. The other chemicals are to there to allow it to dry without a negative reaction to whatever it's put into or mixed with(as in the case of single stage paint). The quality of all the chemicals plays a big part in the lifespan of whatever it's mixed with. That's why lower grade paint doesn't last as long as higher quality paint. 1990 a friend painted a 37 Chevy and caught grief because "he was wasting all that money on expensive paint, primer, etc." It looks as good today as the day he painted it.
It is no garage queen either.
 

elwood

Registered Users
#33
Barry What is the reason for a newer paint job delam within 2-3 years? And how about much older ones. Like 10 15 years with factory and or repaints?

Would you be willing to take a guess on what the activator for Kirkers basecoat is? This is for there Black Diamond line.
One reason for delam in 2-3 years is lack of proper flash times. It peels because the solvent is escaping and taking whatever is over it with it. That's why it's wise to allow base to dry overnight. It has a completely different "look" to it the next day. It looks dry thru and thru.
 
#34
Anotheridiot The silver I got to mix in is the LVB 61231. I was going to get the Quick silver but it is a brighter silver and the metallic specs are larger. I am using the bright blue metallic and some of there color charts make it look like the metallic in it is kind of large. I wanted to lighten up the blue and make it look more faded out like the color on the car that I have grown to like. I think the Quick silver is a good choice under candy paint. I sprayed a test panel last night I did not put the activator in it . I just reduced it some with there reducer. Even without there activator it flashes fast. Sprayed some laquer clear to see what it would look like. I just used an old siphon feed touchup gun. It seems to cover good and I think the metallic sprayed out alright.
 
#35
Elwood thanks for your reply . I understand about the higher quality paints . yes I want to use DBC but I have no money for it right now. What I am doing now will keep the project moving forwards. If I have to strip the paint because of a failure that's what will be done.
 
#36
Yes, I've used Kirker a lot.
I like their urethane pre packaged colors.They have always done really well for me.
I usually put it over SPI epoxy primer.
I had a bad experience once with their paint that was a urethane conversion to make it a base,
stay away from that one.
but the straight urethanes have been great. I did my boat with it and it was tough as nails.
I don't want to tout their brand here, but since you asked.
 
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