Fine tuning difficult body lines

jlcustomz

jlcustomz

evil painter
Back to work on my widebody el camino project recently. This is an over ambitious project as far as metal work is concerned, but that's how you grow. Wasn't able to get metalwork as nice as I wanted, but still well within reason for such a project. Some areas have a few rounds of epoxy, filler, sand, repeat before attaching , other areas just got 2nd epoxy coat so I could get out in daylight & get a better look as to what needs major adjustment before getting smoother.
The worst difficult area is this damn g-body wheel flare. Didn't catch how far bad off it was earlier on. Got a high spot in center from splice & welding & a bad low spot forwards of it partly from getting too close with English wheel during fab. Filling misc areas with metal glaze before g-2 primer. I'm taping a line around wheel flare area with fineline tape to carefully apply filler to & lightly sand before pulling tape as a starting point in correction.
Just trying to get my thinking cap back on here, working a lot of hours lately & brain is tired. Experienced tips appreciated.
20191103_161742.jpg
20191103_153515.jpg
20191103_153657.jpg
 
I know pretty much how I would approach that repair, but I don't really like to share things on this site that don't meet the very high standard some of the outstanding metal guys here set. Certainly at the very least some work needs to be done to lower that high area near the top of the arch, even if more filler will be used to correct the situation.
 
JL can you access the backside? If you can try this, flat dolly with a gentle radius on the end held on the vertical above the line in the approximate area of where you want the line to be. Body hammer underneath bumping, rolling, manipulating the metal on the line up to the dolly where you want the line to be. Planish it off after you get the line in the approximate area.

The high area could be blocked using a hammer like this: https://hammersource.com/picard-375gm-13oz-embossing-21mm-and-25mm-crowned-faces-wood-handle/. In a pinch a ball peen could be used also. Grind the radius of the ball peen to be less sharp if you use one.
.
Idea is to actually hammer into the line. If you have a small shot bag to back it up use it. Block into the line where it's high. Then use a flat faced body hammer and a dolly to reform the line. You'd want to gather the excess material (bulges from the blocking hammer) and push them to where you want the line to be. Do this on both sides of the line. Probably not realistic for me to describe it here if you are unfamilar with the method though.

One other way to try if you have access to the backside is this. Holding your dolly on the vertical part of the panel underneath take a body hammer with a cross peen end or chisel end and start working the line down on the line and just in front of the line(on the flare part). Lots of light blows, don't hit hard. When you get it close flip everything around and use the hammer on the inside to sharpen the line, holding the dolly on the line on the vertical outside.

If you don't have access then obviously you can't do that. Only options I see with no access is fill it with lead, or body filler. Or cut out the low and high section re-work a patch with the correct radius/line and weld it back in. Still would require some filler but nowhere near as much the just filling it to the meet the rest of the line.
 
Last edited:
Third option, kinda butchery but it would work. Thin 1/32 Cut-off wheel starting where it's low and slice on the line to where the high ends. (Or vice-versa) If you have no access but have a stud welder pull the low area up, work the high down. Then MIG it together. Tack it, work the high down and tack it. Tack the whole thing back together taking a lot of time between tacks. Weld grinding wheel on a die grinder and roloc disc on a sander and grind the weld down to approximate the line. Do it right (meaning don't get in a hurry welding) you should be able to finish it with a fairly thin coat of filler.
 
Chris_Hamilton said:
Third option, kinda butchery but it would work. Thin 1/32 Cut-off wheel starting where it's low and slice on the line to where the high ends. (Or vice-versa) If you have no access but have a stud welder pull the low area up, work the high down. Then MIG it together. Tack it, work the high down and tack it. Tack the whole thing back together taking a lot of time between tacks. Weld grinding wheel on a die grinder and roloc disc on a sander and grind the weld down to approximate the line. Do it right (meaning don't get in a hurry welding) you should be able to finish it with a fairly thin coat of filler.
Click to expand...

Slicing and dicing it as Chris suggests is probably what I would do. It is probably the most simple straight forward method in my opinion.

The 3m 01991 Green Corps grinding wheel on a die grinder would be perfect to finish it with.

John
 
Last edited:
One thing that would help you refine the weld into the line would be a flame shaped carbide burr with a fairly sharp point.

Something like the middle one in this picture:
71G1DrLWu-L._AC_UL436_.jpg


Would help you with the sharp transition from vertical flat to the lip edge.
 
Bad part it really makes me mad I spent so much time everywhere else before starting filler & final attachment & missed the wheel well high & low spot. Access now is out of the question, so I was really asking about filling procedures in such shaped areas.
Good part the high spot and most of the low spot are mostly right at the intersecting line & aren't as bad as picture with shiny black makes it look.

Midnight last night it was bugging me & substituted pinstripe tape for fineline tape. Did one light swipe of metal glaze & sanding & it's pretty close & still a bit of see through in filler thickness. 2nd taping & really minimum filler should get it close enough for primer.

Went back to last years pics where I started this before stopping & hadn't shrunk panel from angular cuts to round or ran in English wheel yet & caused low spot I forgot to fix. Looks like I didn't shrink down far enough to the wheel well .
I do have & used quite to collection of burr bits here. Funny that I got the flare to bodyline areas near perfect in raw metal & not the easier part.
Still got the other side to fab, so I'll adjust a few procedures on it. I have substituted a ball peen hammer in spots, an embossing pick hammer as shown would be a nice addition. I'll also start out with better panels that weren't previously beat & ground back to shape. Another 30 plus feet of welding YEE HA.
Gotta love the shiny black epoxy for inspecting.:)
20180311_193744.jpg
20180311_184404.jpg
20180322_215412.jpg
20191104_200010.jpg
 
"Bad part it really makes me mad I spent so much time everywhere else before starting filler & final attachment & missed the wheel well high & low spot."

This is why I like to wash every square inch of the vehicle multiple times through the process. It really helps you not to miss some little detail you later kick yourself for.
And I agree wholeheartedly that the black epoxy is great for identifying problem areas! My 1968 GTX project is sitting in black epoxy in a corner of my garage and every time I walk by it, I see all those problem areas glaring at me. Hopefully I can fish the two projects I am working for others and get back to my own.
 
Anyone interested in Metalshaping I would HIGHLY recommend getting this man's DVD set. http://www.handbuilt.net.au/dvds.html
Peter Tommasini is a Master and teaches the Traditional Method of Coachbuilding. (Metal shaping) At the end of DVD set he makes a complete 1/4 panel (in one piece) for a Aussie Chevelle (Monaro) with nothing more than a English Wheel, sandbag, and handtools. He does it step by step in DVD's 7-8-9. I cannot emphasize enough how much you can learn from these DVD's. Not to mention Peter is also a great guy and really willing to help people learn the trade. You can find him here: www.metalshapershub.com After buying the DVD set a few years ago, I took one of his classes when he was here in the US. Eventually I bought one of his Cast Iron Wheeling Machines (English Wheel). The guy has made his living over the last 50 years making panels. He is the real deal.

A really good DVD to get started with that is very affordable is from David Gardiner. About $40 USD and he goes into a lot of depth. Very good for someone to start learning the basics. Highly recommended. https://metalshapingzone.com/epages...d5-9af5-4b32-b689-b436b9abb456/Categories/DVD

There is a guy here in the US that has an "Internet Reputation" as a guru. He posts a lot on YouTube. (not Lazze btw) Not going name him here but I will if you PM me. Only say this because he has some really crappy methods and gadgets that don't work and obviously self taught and once you've learned a little it's pretty clear he never made his living actually making panels. Watching one of is videos now is actually painful for me as he does not have a understanding of shaping. (Peter does and he is able to communicate that in his videos.) He charges a fortune for classes and you are still not going to have the proper foundation after taking one of his classes. Stay Away.
 
Last edited:
Chris, did you ever have any of John Glover's videos? He made a 4 hour video where he made a model A Ford front fender including the wire edge using nothing but his English Wheel and hand tools. He, like Peter, was a master. I built my English Wheel around 1992 with the help of a machinist friend and was so excited when I found the VHS tapes had he made.

I assume John Glover has passed away. It has been a long time since I have seen any of his videos available.

John
 
metalman said:
Another good guy is Wray Schelin. https://www.proshaper.com/
Click to expand...

Metalman refer to my Internet guru comment:eek: and then go here:https://ce8df029be3e-004671.vbulletin.net/forum/tutorials/videos-online/1967-new-video-by-our-friend The guy means well but he shouldn't be teaching others. Look at that Lotus in the video. Look at the panel fit of the jaguar scoop. The idea of metalshaping is not to have dozens of hours in metalfinishing a panel after you have made it. Or coating it in bondo. He's never made panels for a living. It shows in his lack of understanding of shaping in those videos. No way I would pay him $1200 for a 3 day class. or $15k for his apprentice program. That's a joke. All I'm going to say.

John Long said:
Chris, did you ever have any of John Glover's videos? He made a 4 hour video where he made a model A Ford front fender including the wire edge using nothing but his English Wheel and hand tools. He, like Peter, was a master. I built my English Wheel around 1992 with the help of a machinist friend and was so excited when I found the VHS tapes had he made.

I assume John Glover has passed away. It has been a long time since I have seen any of his videos available.

John
Click to expand...

I'm familiar with him but have only seen a few clips of his videos on youtube. Ron Fournier who passed away not too long ago sold some but I don't know if they are still available or not. If he is alive he has to be way on up there. I made a wheel as well but sold it when I used a cast iron machine that Peter made. I bought one of his and though it wasn't cheap, the difference was night and day.

Reason I posted the links that I did was because there is a lot of misinformation out there about shaping. Especially here in the US. Example there's a youtube video about stumpshrinking by the son of a guy who admins a Metalshaping forum where he "shows" how to tuck shrink. All well and good except he's doing the tuck shrinking backwards. :mad: Try it his way and see what happens. Blind leading the blind. Gadgets and gizmos don't really help if you don't have the fundamental understanding of shaping to start with. Without it you'll never really progress to where you would want to be.

Go here and read this thread https://ce8df029be3e-004671.vbulletin.net/forum/tutorials/videos-online/1967-new-video-by-our-friend

Look how a real Craftsman uses the wheel and shapes a panel. Always in control of the shape.
How to English Wheel a complex panel PART1 - YouTube

Just to be clear the only reason I am saying all this is for anyone who wants to learn to shape or get better and more skilled at it I want them to succeed not fail and to actually be able to learn the process. I want people to succeed at it not spend thousands of dollars and be frustrated because they can't achieve what they set out too. Simple as that.
I have nothing personal against Mr Schelin. But with him it's the blind leading the blind.
 
Last edited:
My first metal fab book was Ron Fournier's & have several others. Robert (mp&c) linked me to a few of Tommasini. He can make it look unrealisticly easy.
First major metal shaping project was my aluminum el camino bedcover, which originally had a 59' chevy tailfin style to it. Lot of hammerforming. Also learned to weld aluminum on that project. Biggest mistake was welding in cross supports which sunk in metal & took extra filler. rebuilt the perimeter early this year to go with my 69 charger upper quarter panel shape & z-06 vette rear. It's got a little SPI technology on it now. This is just wet SPI epoxy before blocking & sanding
20191022_224129.jpg
20191022_224120.jpg
 
If by contour gauge you mean the wire tools you press against something ,probably not a help for flare profile.
Got it a bit better by sight running tape & filling to that line & then sanding. Got g-2 primer on to see a little better. Needs another thin filler swipe or 2 in forwards dip area & remainder should be able to be perfected with calculated hand sanding after filler. Also need to fine tune upper outer edge of old 69'charger upper quarter panel section & the inner body line on it. Finally got me some vette panel adhesive & may just use it for skimming edges. To see these lines best, pretty much gotta get outside with room to view in daylight to stand back & really see. Went by a friends house & asked him to be really critical with a helping eye, since that's what's needed before black paint.
20191109_152312.jpg
20191109_152304.jpg
 
'68 Coronet R/T said:
"Bad part it really makes me mad I spent so much time everywhere else before starting filler & final attachment & missed the wheel well high & low spot."

This is why I like to wash every square inch of the vehicle multiple times through the process. It really helps you not to miss some little detail you later kick yourself for.
And I agree wholeheartedly that the black epoxy is great for identifying problem areas!
Click to expand...

Also, white or a light colored primer really helps for finding problems in body lines that aren’t too obvious with a darker color. I’ve used grey and buff colored poly primers to fine tune my body lines before.

Black primer is almost mandatory for finding low spots and high ones, especially when it’s glossy after spraying. Lighter colors are great for inspecting body lines.
 
John Long said:
The last 20% of the job requires 90% of the determination and patience and maybe even the skill to complete. Hang in there and don't let it get you down. There is light at the end of the tunnel.

John
Click to expand...

Amen John.... I was getting in an emotional low on the Dart as it seemed like I was getting no where on blocking.... Yesterday I shot 2 more coats of high build and did small area with 320 before I quit for the night and it blocked out perfect.... I can see the light.... You just have to push through...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top