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esab spool arc easy grind wire

#21
Thank you for taking the time for all of that. I actually do that with my open panel butt joints.
This particular job is for a couple nearing retirement, project is on a budget. I won't exactly cut corners, but on a budget job do need to make some cost effective decisions for the customer. Structural and hidden welds such as this outer wheel house weld I will tent to burn a bit more continuous weld if I can.

Not trying to make excuses, I was just having trouble pulling off a decent continuous weld with the easy grind.

I do believe I can live with the easy grind with the process you show above.

I gotta be honest though, I can't always access the back side for planishing let alone back side grinding.
 
#22
With any weld, I'd say the most amount shrinking seen with that particular process is from starting and stopping, regardless of the process used. So when you do have those trouble areas with little to no access for planishing, use what works to minimize the shrinking effects. As an example, I have seen some outer rocker repairs posted online that install less than a full rocker as the rust damage seen appeared to be confined to one end or an isolated area. The entirety of the rocker is held in with spot welds around the perimeter that in effect minimize the weld distortion if the replacement involves the entire rocker. Perform a vertical weld with the installation of a partial patch, absent any planishing because you can't reach the back side, and your result will be a guaranteed low area as the vertical weld pulls into a valley. Any effort you thought was saved by doing a piece meal job just gave you more work in final finish. I have also seen where many people suggest you install as little of the patch as needed to repair the rust.

My preference is to repair what is needed to put the weld seam in the location that makes it most accessible for planishing, locates the seam where panel features best resist distortion, and leave the panel size as secondary to these considerations. You'll have a better repair in the long run. Glance at this link for a sample of weld location results:

TIG welding
 
#24
Robert's documentation and tutorial is very micely done and I know appreciated by any who have read this and seen his work. I agree whole heartedly with him. Working from one end to the other, grinding and planishing as you go and connecting the "dots" will yield a much more consistant result.

The one thing I would add is, do not wait to planish the panel until after it has sucked in or distorted. Work the weld (planish) as you go and keep the panel in shape. If you let it get away from you, it will be much harder to get it back straight.

Thank you sir for the time and trouble you put into your reply. Well done.

John
 
#25
MIG welding sheet metal....... First and foremost, you want a full penetration weld. Next, do what is needed for consistency and then, what you can do to lessen the amount of work required. As Chris stated above, I have used ER70S-7 wire and found it to lay MUCH, MUCH flatter than that of ER70S-6, which is what comes with most welders. The way I understand it the -7 contains a slight bit more Manganese for better wetting, ie: flowout of the weld puddle. So the flatter the weld, the less grinding. The unfortunate thing is that there are few US companies that produce this wire in .023 diameter, much less in an 11 lb spool needed for the welders used by most hobbyists. You can still get EZ Grind, and yes, it is expensive. In comparing EZG to -7, I found them comparable in weld flow out, but saw a bit more splatter with the EZ grind. You can find the -7 from Blue Demon, which is a product of China, so I would suggest test coupons with this or any welding wire change to best dial it in for your particular applications..

Here is some testing of welding wire, ER70S-7 welding wire from Blue Demon in .023 diameter. But also, we played with various heat settings.. It has been my experience that heat control does not always equate to a turn of the dial on the heat setting.




I have a Miller 211 Mig, and here is the heat settings, and you can also see around the dial the "suggested" material thickness for said settings.





Before changing out the wire in the machine, lets do a test of the .023 EZ Grind wire.




rear view of weld penetration.....



Then changed to the .023 ER70S-7 wire with no change in the heat settings...




rear view of weld penetration....



Even though we were using 19 ga (.041 thick) panels and the heat setting was for between 16 and 14 gauge, the welds looks like they are sitting a bit proud. There was good weld penetration, but looked like the weld was sitting a bit high. So lets turn up the heat to see if it helps any..

Heat set to 6 (14 ga - 1/8") and then 7 (1/8-3/16), still the S-7 wire



rear view of weld penetration....



Heat set to 8 (3/16) and then 9 (1/4")



rear view of weld penetration...




The comparison between the EZ Grind and the S-7 was really negligible. The Blue Demon is a product of China, but is about our only choice for the S-7 as ESAB has seen fit to stop producing the .023 wire in S-7. The higher heat settings show what I've been saying on many forums, don't be scared of turning up the heat. Set your machine for full penetration welds first and foremost, then fine tune from there. Even though we have higher heat, the weld size and ultimate heat seen by the panel is controlled by length of time of trigger pull. But note that the higher heats MAY also give you a flatter weld, which should equate to less grinding needed to clean up the welds. Downside is that imperfect (gaps) butt joints may also result in blowing holes at these higher settings. All machines are different, even among the same model. My 211 may have different quirks that someone else's doesn't. Practice using weld coupons to dial in your machine before risking the good sheet metal on your project.
Where did you get the ER70S-7 wire in 11 lb spools? I have searched without success.

Thanks,
Don
 
#26
MP&C, I just wanted to thank you for your incredibly in depth posts. I often read them, ignore the advice, screw up, then re-read them and learn.

I do have a question pertaining to the planishing of welds, hopefully not to stray too far from the OPs subject. The welds often form a v when they shrink, with the point going towards the inside of the vehicle. Do you recommend having the dolly on the top of the "v" and hammering the point of the "v", if accessible? Or should it be reversed?

In my mind if you hammer the top of the v, you are stretching the surrounding metal but not the welded area, but I am very new to metalworking.
 
#27
Where did you get the ER70S-7 wire in 11 lb spools? I have searched without success.

Thanks,
Don
Don, one of the guys on Garage Journal was in the same boat of not finding it anywhere, he contacted Blue Demon directly and they respooled some for a small group buy, I think it was for about 5 rolls of the 11 lb spools. I did get two, I'd consider selling one of them if you want one. To me it was about equivalent to the EZ Grind. Not sure what the EZG cost is, but these were approx 40 per spool. If you want to contact Blue Demon about respooling some, use the part number in the picture above. Maybe with enough inquiries they will see the market for having the 11 lb spools readily available.
 
#28
MP&C, I just wanted to thank you for your incredibly in depth posts. I often read them, ignore the advice, screw up, then re-read them and learn.

I do have a question pertaining to the planishing of welds, hopefully not to stray too far from the OPs subject. The welds often form a v when they shrink, with the point going towards the inside of the vehicle. Do you recommend having the dolly on the top of the "v" and hammering the point of the "v", if accessible? Or should it be reversed?

In my mind if you hammer the top of the v, you are stretching the surrounding metal but not the welded area, but I am very new to metalworking.

Mitch, part of the reason I suggest to weld (dot), grind, planish, repeat.... is that by planishing each weld in the individual state the amount of shrink is still minimal that the panel should not yet have pulled into a vee. This would help to keep things in check, so to speak. If you performed ZERO grinding and planishing throughout a weld seam, all of the shrinking effects will have combined enough that you will have a guaranteed valley along the weld in the crown of the panel, making it more of a challenge to remove the distortion. Having said that, in some cases your planishing efforts may have been sufficient to perform the stretching needed but all the hammer action may tend to keep things low. First suggestion is to not keep the dolly so tight against the back side, held lightly against the panel should have a recoil effect that it may work better to bump/raise the affected area. If that doesn't seem to work, then yes, hammering from the back side will help to raise the low area. In many cases you don't have as much swing room on the inside of panels, so it may require a compact hammer, like the new one from S-O....

 
#29
Yeah, that is exactly what I had done! It was before you came on the boards and gave me advice, you had even replied to my thread about this.

One more question that popped up after reading your reply, how do you know how much to planish the weld if it hasn't visibly shrunk yet? A couple good raps with a hammer & dolly, or...?
 
#30
Planishing required is largely dependent on the process used. MIG (dot) welding will likely yield the most shrinking effect. A non-stop TIG weld heats and cools progressively as you weld, so should be less of the heating and cooling for less of the shrinking effects. For using MIG and planishing the individual weld dots, I think the two to three good raps will get you in the ball park. May be a good use of a profile template taken from the intact panel beforehand, see how much planishing returns the original shape
 

Chris_Hamilton

Trying to be the best me, I can be
#31
Keep in mind Mitch doing the method that Robert is talking about takes a long time. Patience is the key. MIG welds are harder to planish than other forms of welding like O/A or TIG Robert does some nice work using the MIG, probably the nicest I've ever seen using that method.
 
#32
I have attempted his method befire, but I was unsure of how much to planish. I ended up not planishing as I couldn't see the gap increasing or decreasing. Of course, in the end it had shrunk. I should have asked prior, but now I know. I have started tig welding where I have access to the backside, although I still use my might in tight or uncomfortable spots. My last attempt yielded very little shrinkage but I do hope to get more efficient with both might and tig.

However..... Wow, a tig is easier to reshape! I was used to hammering mig welds and carried the same "enthusiasm" towards the tig welds. Whoops!