Deviations from the perfect job

V

Vlad

I am a beginner hobby painter and have time for painting only during weekends (and not every weekend actually as I have a family). I also need to drive to the garage where I can paint and then drive back to another garage where I can keep my car protected from the rain (we have rain almost every second day this summer).

So in practice this means that on Saturday, I arrive to the garage where I can paint, take a panel or two from the car, prepare it for painting, then shoot some paint and leave for drying overnight. Next day, all I can do is just put the panels back on the car and drive back to another garage for storage. Then after a week or two, I can move to the next step (whatever it is).

It is obvious that the perfect paint job procedure is not practical for me as it will take me forever to finish painting the way I do it. It is actually acknowledged in description of the perfect job that the procedure is not practical for everyone.

But what deviations can one make from the perfect job in order to speed up the painting process without compromising the quality too much?

As I said I am only a beginner, but I have read a lot about painting (including almost everything on this forum). Based on how I understand the painting process, this is what I plan to do:

Step 1.

Srip the paint (DA 80), then bondo work directly to bare metal (using high quality 2K polyester putty). Then 1 wet coat of epoxy, then 1 hour later followed with 3 coats of 2K primer (with 30 min flash time). Let dry overnight. Next day, put the panel on the car and drive home for storage of the car in a garage. Let the car dry in the garage for a week.

In my view, the above can be done over one weekend for one panel (maybe two). The perfect job would require 3 weekends.

It seems a bit controversial whether bondo application directly to metal provides a good protection from corrosion. So I would really like to hear opinion of experienced people about this. Some say that epoxy first, then bondo is the way to go, but some actually claim that direct bondo to metal is superior for corrosion protection.

Another thing that I would like to find out is if it is a good idea to put 2 wet coats of epoxy and then after 1 hour – 3 coats of 2K primer with good flash times. This is normally not recommended, but maybe if you let the car sit for 1 week, then everything will be fine?

Step 2.

After letting the car sit for 1-2 weeks, block the 2K primer with 150 grit as required. Then 1 wet coat of epoxy to seal sand troughs and then (1 hour later) shoot 3 coats of 2 K primer. Next day, put the panel back on the car and drive back for storage. Then let the car sit for 1-2 weeks.

This step can also be done over one weekend versus at least 2 weekends according to the perfect job.

Step 3.
Block the panel with 320 dry, followed by 600 wet. Then shoot 2 coats of single stage acrylic urethane. Next day, put the panel back on the car, drive back to the garage for storage and after 1 week of drying, the panel should be ready for getting outside.

I would really like to hear the opinion of the experts here about the above procedure, because that is what I actually plan to do at the moment. As I said, I am only a beginner. So I am not sure if my plan is sound or not.

One thing is for sure: the perfect job is absolutely impractical for me and I need to make some shortcuts. I understand of course that shortcuts lead to poorer quality, but hopefully a reasonable compromise can be achieved.
 
You will have an easier time following these steps than a production shop. Letting the car sit between steps is a good thing, in most cases. The 7 day window on epoxy is probably the first thing you are going to ask about. Just scuff the epoxy before filler, 2k, or more epoxy, and your problem is solved.
 
Epoxy on the bare metal for the best job.. Hell the factory dips them in ecoat first.. That is the same thing as epoxy btw.. Do it.. Do it.. Do it..

Fill over that..
You can omit using an epoxy as a sealer before you paint..

After all your fill work is completed. You need to block the car with either a poly or 2k high build primer Im sure.. This process should not be overlooked or skipped over.. The paint will only look as good as the foundation it was built on long term. Dont block with higher than 150-180 grit.. Otherwise you are wasting time in my opinion

After it blocks out perfect.. You can add reducer to your 2k to make it spray slick and thinner.. A couple wet coats for a final prime and sand..

Block with either 400 for a solid.. Or 600 for a metallic/pearl/candy etc..

You can paint from there.

Is this the ultimate way.. No, but you will probably be happy with the results..

;)
 
Vlad;10074 said:
I am a beginner hobby painter and have time for painting only during weekends (and not every weekend actually as I have a family). I also need to drive to the garage where I can paint and then drive back to another garage where I can keep my car protected from the rain (we have rain almost every second day this summer).

So in practice this means that on Saturday, I arrive to the garage where I can paint, take a panel or two from the car, prepare it for painting, then shoot some paint and leave for drying overnight. Next day, all I can do is just put the panels back on the car and drive back to another garage for storage. Then after a week or two, I can move to the next step (whatever it is).

It is obvious that the perfect paint job procedure is not practical for me as it will take me forever to finish painting the way I do it. It is actually acknowledged in description of the perfect job that the procedure is not practical for everyone.

But what deviations can one make from the perfect job in order to speed up the painting process without compromising the quality too much?

As I said I am only a beginner, but I have read a lot about painting (including almost everything on this forum). Based on how I understand the painting process, this is what I plan to do:

Step 1.

Srip the paint (DA 80), then bondo work directly to bare metal (using high quality 2K polyester putty). Then 1 wet coat of epoxy, then 1 hour later followed with 3 coats of 2K primer (with 30 min flash time). Let dry overnight. Next day, put the panel on the car and drive home for storage of the car in a garage. Let the car dry in the garage for a week.

Taken from the perfect paint job: Spray one wet coat of epoxy over all filler spots and over any bare metal spots. Now let the vehicle set overnight.

The next day you can start spraying the 2K Primer over the epoxy.

In my view, the above can be done over one weekend for one panel (maybe two). The perfect job would require 3 weekends.

It seems a bit controversial whether bondo application directly to metal provides a good protection from corrosion. So I would really like to hear opinion of experienced people about this. Some say that epoxy first, then bondo is the way to go, but some actually claim that direct bondo to metal is superior for corrosion protection.

Another thing that I would like to find out is if it is a good idea to put 2 wet coats of epoxy and then after 1 hour – 3 coats of 2K primer with good flash times. This is normally not recommended, but maybe if you let the car sit for 1 week, then everything will be fine?
Taken from the Perfect Paint Job: Spray one wet coat of epoxy over all filler spots and over any bare metal spots. Now let the vehicle set overnight.

The next day you can start spraying the 2K Primer over the epoxy.


Step 2.

After letting the car sit for 1-2 weeks, block the 2K primer with 150 grit as required. Then 1 wet coat of epoxy to seal sand troughs and then (1 hour later) shoot 3 coats of 2 K primer. Next day, put the panel back on the car and drive back for storage. Then let the car sit for 1-2 weeks.

This step can also be done over one weekend versus at least 2 weekends according to the perfect job.

Step 3.
Block the panel with 320 dry, followed by 600 wet. Then shoot 2 coats of single stage acrylic urethane. Next day, put the panel back on the car, drive back to the garage for storage and after 1 week of drying, the panel should be ready for getting outside.

I would really like to hear the opinion of the experts here about the above procedure, because that is what I actually plan to do at the moment. As I said, I am only a beginner. So I am not sure if my plan is sound or not.

One thing is for sure: the perfect job is absolutely impractical for me and I need to make some shortcuts. I understand of course that shortcuts lead to poorer quality, but hopefully a reasonable compromise can be achieved.

You don't want to rush the 2k according to the PPJ . I would do as BK says, strip it down, then shoot Epoxy.
I understand your situation and time constraints so take off a few panels get them in that Beautiful Black Epoxy each week end until it is all in black, then go after the body work a panel or two at a time .
Once you get the epoxy on it you have years to finish the panels , and can be driving it in the meantime if need be.
If bare metal has bondo on it, then epoxy, the epoxy would have to be breached for moisture to get to the bondo. At that point the bondo transfers the moisture to the bare metal lying underneath it and rust forms.. A coating of epoxy under the bondo would have stopped panel rust- out in this scenario.
 
I think what you are doing will work pretty good but the one issue I have, is the time between the epoxy and applying the 2K primer, I would love to see the epoxy set over night 6-10 hours before the 2K primer was applied. This is my only concern with how you are doing things but its a big concern to me.

OK, I will concede that production shops do apply 2k primer over the epoxy in 1-2 hours and I know some that do it in 30 minutes, but it scares me to death.
 
Thanks to all for the answers! I really appreciate it.

Since everybody thinks that shooting 2K primer right after epoxy is such a big concern, I have decided not to do this.

But bondo will be applied directly to metal since Barry says that this is OK. For me this saves a lot of time since I am not a bondo virtuoso.

My problem with bondo over epoxy is that I cannot do a good bondo work with a single coat of bondo application. This means that I will have bare metal sand throughs after blocking the first bondo coat. After this I will need to apply a second coat of bondo. But how can I do this? Should I first shoot epoxy again over sand throughs so that I can apply a second bondo coat over epoxy (and not bare metal)? If the answer is yes, then I simply don’t have time for this. If no, then what’s the point of applying epoxy in the first case?

I know that bondo is porous. But shouldn’t the bondo pores be closed after it soaks in the epoxy? I think this is probably the reason why direct bondo application to metal actually works in terms of rust protection according to what many people say. Epoxy gets into the bondo pores, cures inside and makes the pores sealed. Isn’t it so?

Now let’s move from theory to practical work. We had a day of good weather on Saturday, and I thought I could do two fenders. Well, I spent 8 hours on doing body work on a just single fender. This was much slower than I anticipated, but I think the fender’s surface was really good in the end. I had a really nice 21’ flat blocker from AFS which made it very easy to block half of the fender surface, but the rest was curved and I did not have good blockers for that. So I spent really a lot of times on the curvy part of the fender.

Then I shot 2 coats of epoxy with a 30 min flash time. This was actually my first experience with a spray gun. Previously I painted a lot with spray cans, and using spray cans is VERY slow and it’s very hard to obtain a uniform coverage. So I adjusted the gun according to the procedure described by Barry, and immediately shot a coat of epoxy on the fender. I did not do any test painting (as recommended on many websites) simply because during the gun adjustment I could immediately see this was going to be so much easier and faster than with spray cans. And it was fast! I think it took about a minute or two to shoot a single coat over the fender. I was really impressed by the quality. I don’t want to imply that I was so good from the first try, but I compare the quality to what I would normally obtain with spray cans. And I obtained so much better quality than with spray cans that I was really pleased.

Then I had to wait for 30 min flash and these 30 min seemed like eternity. Really very long 30 min I must say. I can now understand why people rush things. It is so exiting to shoot paint and really so boring to wait for the paint to flash between the coats.

Important questions
After shooting epoxy, how long does it need to dry before I can get the car under rain? So far the car is in the garage drying.

When I am going to shoot 2K, the epoxy will most likely be out of the recoat window. So I will need to scuff the epoxy. Is red scotch brite good enough for this? Then after I shoot a single coat of epoxy, when can I apply 2K over it? OK after 60 min now? Or do I have to wait for overnight drying? I would really prefer not to wait that long.
 
Epoxy safe in rain even if tacky in 60 minutes.

Id rather see the epoxy sanded with 180 but a red scuff pad should work OK, if you don't let the epoxy set more then 2 weeks.
Not a perfect situation but you might get away with it.
 
Thank you, Barry!

Update
The weather in Denmark is really bad during this summer for some reason. We have 15-20 rainy days each month. So my plan to work in the weekends does not work at all: no luck getting a non-rainy day on a weekend. So I decided to take some vacation time and do the necessary prep work in the garage while it's rainy, but shoot paint on a sunny (at least non-rainy) day.

So I did body work, epoxied everything, then 2K primered and shot a single coat of single stage acrylic urethane (jet black). I think I worked 10 days or something like that as I lost a track of time by now. About 14 hours every day, and now I am totally physically exhausted. I thought I was in a good shape as I do a lot of strength training. But enough complaining. Let’s get to the results

The result turned out to be surprisingly good, at least in my view and those who worked in the garage with me. But I have a couple of problems:

1) The horizontal surfaces (hood, roof and trunk) are really like a mirror and look great. This is not a problem of course, but I though that polishing is necessary to get that effect. However, all the vertical surfaces are not as good. They are not bad: very shiny and mirror-like, but not like a mirror when compared to the horizontal surfaces. So why is that? What did I do wrong when shooting the vertical surfaces? Can this be corrected by polishing?

2) I have quite a lot dirt in the paint, one large run (but in a place that is hard to see) and accidentally scratched the paint badly in a couple of places when it was still wet (also in such a place that is not very noticeable).

3) In one place I have a noticeable high spot (on the hood) from the filler. It was not visible at all when the car was primered, but now since the surface is like mirror I can see the imperfection at a certain angle. It’s not huge – about 1’’ x 1’’ size, but I would prefer to get rid of it. Any suggestions how to do this?

My plan at the moment is to block sand the paint and shoot a second coat while trying to avoid the problems above. Any suggestions about the grit? I was thinking about 320 dry as this is the final grit I used for the primer. How long to let the car cure before sanding? My plan at the moment is 4 days. Is there any time limit for shooting the second coat so that the adhesion is not compromised?
 
Sounds like overall you did great, painter tend to shoot the sides dryer then flat surfaces and that is why the gloss difference and the bad part bout shooting them dryer, is we tend to over wet on the next coat to flow it and "here come the runs" Pros or rookies tend to have the same issue.

Hand sands all the runs smooth use a 400-800, to fine can cause problems as far as breaking the thiner paint next to the run although SS not really an issue like base clear.
Then wet sand the whole car smooth with again 400-800 and re-shoot, lay the sides wetter and just flash longer to avoid the runs.
 
Thank you for your quick response, Barry! It's a bit scary, but I'll try to shoot the sides wetter and see how it goes.

I have one probably very stupid question, but after putting so much effort into the painting, I am simply afraid to ruin what I have.

Can I start sanding with 320 dry instead of 400 wet? The reason for this is that I have a lot of sticky 320 dry paper which I can stick to my long AFS sanding block (21 inch long) and produce a very good quality result. I also have 400 wet paper, but it's not sticky, so I need to wrap the paper around some short blocks if I start with 400 wet. I am not really sure that I can produce good quality sanding with a short block if I sand the whole car with it. After the 320 dry, I could follow with 600 and 800 wet using a short block in order to get rid of the 320 scratches. What do you think?
 
Update.

1. Wet sanding the single stage top paint with 400 did not go so well. It looked good when wet, but after I washed the car and let it dry I could see that in many places I just cut the tips of the urethane wave. After that I blocked everything with 320 dry.

So my question is how do you know when to stop wet sanding? It seems quite hard to see if the wave is gone when the surface is wet. The surface felt very smooth to the touch by hand. Or maybe it just does not matter if the wave is totally gone if you are going to shoot more paint?

2. Shooting SS did not go so well: I got evem more trash in the paint than last time. Two meters away from the car, it looks really good and glossy, but on close up, you can see a lot of tiny dirt particles all over and in some cases even small crates with a tiny particle in the middle. So it seems to me that I had water in line and probably more water than last time. I used a disposable water trap filter which I had been using for a long time. It looked totally wet inside. So it seems like I need to get a new one. I tried to dry it in the sun, but it did not help a lot, it seems. I also used 1.3 tip for shooting SS. I read somewhere that 1.3 tip might overatomise paint, but some claim that it's very good for SS.

Can it be that water in line (probably not a lot of it since I used an old water trap filter) and use of 1.3 tip was a bad combination that resulted in tiny dirt particles consisting of dried paint (paint which dried before reaching the surface of the car)?

3. What should I do now? Wet sand again, use 1.5 tip (instead of 1.3) and a new water trap filter and shoot again? I have some doubts that I would be able to polish out those diffects considering that I also have some small crates as well (but not too much).
 
I would say no on the 320 with out knowing what SS you have on the car, reason is some clears and SS's cannot handle a 320, a safer bet would be just start with either 600 and I would prefer to say 800.
 
Thank you, Barry. I use Mipa's SS deep black. Actually when I shot the first coat of SS I forgot to block the car with 320. So the primer was blocked with 150 dry. A single coat filled in the scratches quite well, but not everywhere. I could see some scratches in a few places. It could be of course that the scratches become visible later on, in a few months.
 
May I ask why you are shooting single coats of the single stage black?? You should be shooting multiple coats of ss per session!!
 
In my first session, I got a lot of trash. So I thought it would be best not to continue, but let it dry and then sand out the trash. In the second session, I actually shot two coats.
 
Senile Old Fart;10094 said:
You don't want to rush the 2k according to the PPJ . I would do as BK says, strip it down, then shoot Epoxy.
I understand your situation and time constraints so take off a few panels get them in that Beautiful Black Epoxy each week end until it is all in black, then go after the body work a panel or two at a time .
Once you get the epoxy on it you have years to finish the panels , and can be driving it in the meantime if need be.
If bare metal has bondo on it, then epoxy, the epoxy would have to be breached for moisture to get to the bondo. At that point the bondo transfers the moisture to the bare metal lying underneath it and rust forms.. A coating of epoxy under the bondo would have stopped panel rust- out in this scenario.

This is exactly the approach I want to take.
Mine is a 66 Chevy truck that I want to be able to use, but also protect.
To do a total frame off restore isn't practical for me at this time, but I don't want to leave this truck to the mercy of the elements either.

Is it really so that we can drive our trucks in epoxy alone?
 
LostMy65;11184 said:
Is it really so that we can drive our trucks in epoxy alone?

No reason not to. Black epoxy is now suitable as a topcoat since the addition of UV protectant. It's the perfect material for a "rolling restoration."
 
crashtech;11187 said:
No reason not to. Black epoxy is now suitable as a topcoat since the addition of UV protectant. It's the perfect material for a "rolling restoration."

I already bought the grey.
 
Grey should be fine, but black is better for really long term stuff, like many years worth of durability. Talk to Barry about it.
 
crashtech;11195 said:
Grey should be fine, but black is better for really long term stuff, like many years worth of durability. Talk to Barry about it.

Thanks.

I just read that thread where Barry said he added UV protection to the Black.
It appears it can actually be used as a final coat. - Wow!

This truck of mine will be parked under cover the biggest majority of time.
Just runs to home depot and the like.
So yes, Grey will most likely serve me good until I can afford to give it a complete paint job.

Although, this looks pretty cool:
crusin023.jpg
 
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