Buffing problems

GJSZ51

GJSZ51

Member
I have been unable to get to my shop for a couple of months but, am "back in the saddle" as is said. As some might recall, I shot SPI Universal clear on my '65 Barracuda and, 64 Fury back in the fall. The sprayability and gloss of the Universal clear are excellent even when compared to the PPG 2002 I was accustomed to spraying. I really like this stuff! These cars are begging to be completed and, to that end, I have spent the last week trying to buff them.

I have always used the complete 3M system. Tryzact 1500, 3000, and 5000 followed by Perfect 1, 2 and 3. When using 2002, 2 passed with 3m compound and I would have Very good driver quality gloss, 2 and 3 will always produce a show finish.

I am not having the same luck with the Universal clear. I can't seem to get rid of the haze. Is there a buffing window for this product? I am sorry I cut it... I could have sanded with 800 and shot 2 more coats of clear on each car in less time and expense. (and may still do that). I simply don't want to do this again on one of my other cars.
 
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no man, after 5000 even if the universal clear has sat for months or years it should buff easy as pie and come up with a super wet, flawless gloss with almost no effort. those hazy finishes i see almost look like you got your 1500 grit scratches in there and didnt sand enough with the 3000 to remove them. are you using the purple plastic film trizact discs? if so you have to get off that stuff. its terrible. your better off using the 1500 finishing film dry then the 3000 and 5000 foam pads. also it could be your trying to use your 3000 way too long. its hard to tell when that stuff wears out but i can tell you it doesnt last as long as you think it does. you'll get 2 mid size doors out of it and thats it. the 5000 on the other hand lasts forever. here is a pic of a 69 camaro hood i just did before christmas. its finished off in 5000 then perfect it compound and polish.
 
Wash one panel that looks the worst with wax and grease remover and see what it looks like.

Biggest problem I run into on the tech calls is with the first step, not running the RPMS high enough or not compounding with the first step long enough.
You may have a build up of glaze and no cutting is being done now with the lubrication of the glaze.
 
Thanks, Jim. I make overlapping passes with each grit in 2 passes. I made at least 4 passes with the 1500 with no foam interface (yes... trizact blue film with water) and I did, indeed, do the whole car with 2 3000 pads with foam interface. 2 pads of 5000, as well. I will go over it again with 3000, keeping a fresh pad then 5000. What are you using in lieu of the 1500 Trizact? I may go back to hand wet sanding up to 1200-1500 then the Trizact 3000 and 5000.

Barry... I will wash the driver fender with wax and grease remover and see what happens. Should I use regular or water bourne? I buff at about 1500. Should I up the RPMs?

 
Not sure, but that looks like a dual action type buffer/polisher, which will not cut out the sanding scratches. Go rotary.
 
Thanks, Shine. After reading your post, I ordered some. Want to use up the 3M stuff, too.

old soul, it is a Porter Cable DA. Has worked for me well in the past. Any recommendations on a rotary?
 
Either Wax and grease remover will be fine, first cutting, I'm much higher then that and slow down as I go to next steps.
 
I think most buffing problems are not getting the previous sand scratch out before moving on. Try using 3m dry guide coat in the dry colorsanding process until you get more familiar. I believe you will be amazed at what is left to sand when you think you're ready to go to next grit. I never wet sand because you can't see what is happening. Clarity comes only one way...
no scratches....Dave
 
yeah those 3m 1500 trizact are terrible. best place for them is the trash can. they leave a heavy sanding scratch thats hard to remove and tons of pigtails. the trizact on foam, like the 3 and 5000 is fine however. do your 1500 step dry and use 3m 1500 finishing film or eagle 1500 yellow film supertack discs. both will get used with a soft interface pad. both are available in 1000 as well. i agree with fly. looks like your not getting your scratches out from before then you are putting a shine on it with a buffer but the scratches are still there. the 3000 foam discs keep making a foamy water residue on the surface and your thinking its working but its not. thats the trick with those. they work good but its impossible to tell when the disc is wiped out. you basically did one panel with your 3000 then you just rubbed the rest of the car down with a piece of foam lol.
 
I must admit, this is the first time I have had this kind of problem but, recognize that is largely my fault. Not only did I use the 1500 but, I over used it. I made 6 to 8 section passes assuming the 3000 would remove them. I overused the 3000 and realize now it is good for 1 panel or approximately a 4 x 4 section at best. The slurry does indeed turn to foam and, is the only indication the 3000 is worn slam out. Additionally, it is likely to be putting little orbit worms in your finish.So all the work I was doing was for not result.

I also wipe down with micro fiber after each sanding operation. That reveals little but, if you wipe down with wax and grease remover on micro fiber, it will show your scratches.

It took me all day to produce this in the first cut ( 2 passes ) of 3M Perfect it compound



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The last car I painted with PPG sanded and buffed with 3M. But, I did not lean on the 1500 so hard, as I recall. The finish was like glass and nib free prior to buffing...




Just so I don't look like a complete idiot...:disturbed:

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Has anyone tried the Norton equivilant to trizact? It is much cheaper, I am told. They do not make a 5000, though. 3M trizact 3000 and 5000 cost me about 5.00/pad. Guess that is why I was leaning on the 3000 so hard. By that I mean, stretching the use...

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Thanks for all the good help and info Jim, Shine, Barry and Dave.

This site rocks!
 
The 1500 trizact is what will give you tons of pigtails. I have used the norton version of the trizact a fee years ago. It was pink film. Called norex i think. Problem with that is its a plastic film exactly like the 3m 1500 and it leaves oigtails everywhere. The trizact has to be in foam and should only be used to refine the scratches from cutting the clear flat. 3m does make 1500 foam trizact discs but only avail in tue meguires line. Foam doesnt cut flat though so if you dry sand with 1000 first then goto the foam its fine. You just dont want to start with a foam pad. Another note....youll get more than 4sq ft with the 3000. Figure maybe 2 doors or so.

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for you initial cut this is the best stuff going. comes in 1500,1200 or 1000. outlasts 3m finishing film 2 or 3:1.


http://www.amazon.com/Eagle-778-1500-SUPER-TACK-Yellow-Film-Discs/dp/B000BI2MHK/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1389742863&sr=8-3&keywords=eagle+yellow+film+discs
 
If we're doing a show quality, we hand sand with 600, 1000, 1500, 2000, with proper backing pads or boards, then go with the 3000 trizact...The 5000 doesn't seem worth it for us, but doesn't hurt anything, of course. We start light with the 600 and each time you move up in grit it takes about double the time it did with each previous grit. A person becomes really jacked after spraying the car and can see the results in your mind and start out really sanding well and then taper off with the higher grits both because it is hard to determine when to switch up and more importantly how much work it really is. It can take almost as much work after the spraying as it does to prepare for spraying. I have seen many highend cars flipped at the big auctions for big money with nothing more than a proper color sand and buff/detail....Go slow and just take a panel and make it as perfect as you can before you move on to another panel....kind of divide up the job into little jobs and before you know it, you will have a work of art...Dave
 
Proper sanding provides the best results IMO, you can stop at a coarser grit and lean on the buffer longer but the results aren't as good. UV clear even 5 years old buffs better than any PPG clear I've ever used.
 
This has been a "relearning experience" for an old guy. I have never been one to cut corner and, I am usually skeptical of "new" things over tried and true methods.

Clearly this is not a Universal clear problem, Bob. I was perplexed in the beginning of this thread. When you consider how much I have sanded the 3 coat clear on the Fury, I am quite impressed! As everyone has acknowledged (including me, at this point) there is no advantage in attempting to eliminate steps to a perfect (or near perfect) paint job. Using the right materials and equipment is of equal importance. My biggest single error is the use of the 3M 1500 trizact. The quickest fix is to go back and hand sand it.

The Barracuda, which is intended to be a show car, was hand sanded with 600, 800 and 1000. I topped that off with 4 passes of tryzact 1500. Big mistake. Fortunately there are 6 coats of Universal clear on it. Nothing lost except a whole lot of time!

I have saved no time and created more work and frustration for myself. Another lesson learned and relearned!

Thanks everyone for the guidance and help!

I hope all the newbies and DIYers are watching this thread.
 
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