64 GTO - New Member - A Few Questions

1_Wild_Cat

Promoted Users
Hello Everyone…

First, let me say how much I have enjoyed reading through this forum over the last several months. There is a lot of great information here – along with a laid-back attitude. I’m going to start with a few questions – but if you like reading about/looking at projects I’ll show some stuff below. I should add that I have restored other vehicles – but I have always left paint and body to others. I have some good mechanical and electrical skills.

The car under construction is a ’64 Pontiac GTO…The questions:

  • I have sourced interior paint from Kolor Korrect. This paint is lacquer, but I would like to use it because the color, sheen and texture are spot-on. The interior is Saddle color so a little trickier than basic black. Am I OK shooting lacquer over SPI epoxy?

  • Kolor Korrect has also sent me a spray out of their base coat (Saddle Bronze). But they say they have no experience with using SPI over this basecoat. Has anybody here done this with their product? (I’m not committed to using their basecoat but the color match is excellent).

  • Should I have any concerns where the lacquer areas come up against base/clear areas?
I case you are curious here is the story of the car and the work so far. This car was taken off the road for restoration in about 1987. I got the car a few years ago and bought it as a basket case – missing one quarter panel and trunk floor, but incredibly rust free. Pretty clearly the car had been in a collision but according to the PO and what we have found in stripping the car – a lot of the damage was done by the previous bodymen. The practice appears to have been to cave the panel in with a hammer and fill with bondo up to about 1-1.5” thick. (The pictures are not my shop BTW - those are a friends cars in the background).

AsPurchasedDriverFront.jpg

AsPurchasedDriverRear.jpg

AsPurchasedPassFront.jpg

AsPurchasedPassRear.jpg


I am fortunate to have Cam at Imperial Kustom in Boise doing the metal work on this car. He is an extremely skilled metal worker and fabricator (and painter, etc.). Cam has replaced the trunk floor, hung and fitted the quarter, fabricated and straightened the roof skin, and is now working on the last few panels to make sure all the work is up to snuff.

In Process Trunk Floor.jpg

Quarter Installed 1.jpg

Bad Extension Fit 2.jpg

Grafted Pie Piece.jpg

Grafted Pie Piece Filled 2.jpg


Reasonably soon the car will be coming back to me – and I will be learning to shoot primers, do fill work and block sand. I will also be laying the color on areas like the firewall, inner fenders, etc. Based on recommendations from Cam (and others) this will all be done with SPI products. At this point it is likely the Cam will be shooting the base and the clear to complete the body portion of the project.

Thanks for taking the time to read all this. And thanks for any help you can provide.
 
I have no knowledge of Kolor Korrect. What I would suggest is if they have the exact color you want, is to buy the smallest amount possible and make sprayouts. Take the sprayouts to a jobber and get them to match it. You could also send them to Chad @ autorod technoligies and let him match them in Motobase, which is an excellent base. The interior color could also be mixed and cleared with a satin clear to match the gloss level. I would steer away from lacquer if at all possible. I did a 64 GTO convertible 5-6 years ago. That car was rust free but had also been wrecked to the point of needing a frame. The owner had a frame and all the parts to fix it that he had collected for over 20 years. Those cars are iconic. This car belongs to Arnie Beswick's nephew. He has a lot of super rare Pontiac engines, parts and cars.
 
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Checked out the company's website and it is geared toward DIY restorers, not Pro's. That's a red flag. Biggest amount they sell is quarts...another red flag. I couldn't find any real Technical Data on their site and to me that is a big red flag. Best I could find is that they stated the interior paint is "lacquer based" and the exterior paint is "acrylic enamel". LOL. They claim they have the original formulas but that is just a marketing gimmick as having original formulas does no good when using modern materials. (including what passes for lacquer today) When lead was phased out of paint, it throws the "original formula" thing out the window. And that's not even taking into account the fact that what was sprayed in the 60's (enamel and lacquer) is not what is sprayed now. So just more marketing b.s.

You want to use Professional Grade products. PPG, Glasurit, Sikkens, Standox, Motobase, BASF Diamont etc. There are plenty of quality manufacturers out there. PPG and Glasurit both have extensive color libraries geared toward Classic's. GTO's being as commonly restored cars (and being a GM) will probably have formulations in many of the companies paint lines. GTO's and GM's in general, are so well documented that interior paint codes are all documented as are exterior codes. You should be able to go to a PPG jobber for example give him your paint codes and he should be able to mix what you need on the spot.

DO your research and talk to some of the GTO and Pontiac restoration specialists. Ask them what they use. What brand. If you are really charming some may even give you specific brand (like PPG) paint codes.
Take the sprayout they sent you (Kolor Korrect) and any of the above companies can use their color camera to match it. But I don't think that will be even neccesary as they probably will have a modern formulation of Saddle Bronze being that so many GM cars of that era used that color.
 
I have no knowledge of Kolor Korrect. What I would suggest is if they have the exact color you want, is to buy the smallest amount possible and make sprayouts. Take the sprayouts to a jobber and get them to match it. You could also send them to Chad @ autorod technoligies and let him match them in Motobase, which is an excellent base. The interior color could also be mixed and cleared with a satin clear to match the gloss level. I would steer away from lacquer if at all possible. I did a 64 GTO convertible 5-6 years ago. That car was rust free but had also been wrecked to the point of needing a frame. The owner had a frame and all the parts to fix it that he had collected for over 20 years. Those cars are iconic. This car belongs to Arnie Beswick's nephew. He has a lot of super rare Pontiac engines, parts and cars.
Exactly what I am doing with my '68 Plymouth GTX. Kolor Korrect had the interior color but also in lacquer. It was extremely expensive in my opinion for old school technology.
Chad worked with me over a couple of weeks until we got a perfect match. (Me in Arizona and him in Michigan)
 
Hi Everyone

Thanks for the replies and advice. It was advice within the Pontiac community that led me to Kolor Korrect - although their website is not well done, so far they have been excellent with regard to customer service. I know that paint formulations have changed and that mixing colors from "original formulas" does not yield correct 60s colors. Whatever they are doing - the spray outs are spot-on the correct color (at least compared to my paint book chips).

The issue I am having with using a modern BC/CC in the interior is as much the texture as the color. The upper dash of the GTO should be an almost flat sheen with what the Mopar guys would call a suede texture. Every attempt I have ever seen to duplicate this finish in BC/CC turns out looking like fine orange peel rather than the correct appearance. The texture might not be that big a deal in a car that was equipped with the padded dash - but in one like mine with only the steel I would like it to look right.

Here is a photo of the spray out (the darker color is the upper dash) to give you the idea of the flat-suede finish...
Paint Chips.JPG


With regard to the exterior color basecoat - I have had the PPG sprayed out since in the past PPG has been one of my go-to suppliers. It was not close to the right color. I had a recommendation for the Glasurit but we haven't sprayed a test yet.

I hope I am not coming off as defensive or argumentative, I am just trying to end up with the best result.

Thanks again for helping out.
 
I can understand the texture issue. Lacquer is so thin it adds very little texture, compared to BC/CC. One of the problems with spraying lacquer is getting a quality thinner. As far as I know, there is not any. A good jobber should be able to match the color and sheen in a single stage urethane, which would be far superior. Thin coats should replicate the texture.
 
Like TK says quality lacquer thinner is really not available anymore. So you are stuck with whatever passes for quality thinner these days. To me though the interior is far less of an issue than the exterior. Especially if you are garaging it. Use epoxy (SPI:)) for your base and spray the lacquer over it, it should last for quite sometime. But it won't be anywhere near as resilient or tough as a modern urethane.

Failure to replicate the texture is more of a skill/technique issue than a materials issue IMO. Like Texas said thin coats, very slow reducer (possibly slightly over reduce) if using a single stage. One issue I see with using a single stage urethane is getting correct gloss. Using a base clear system will help dial in the gloss (or lack thereof). Modern basecoats spray very similar to lacquers of old in terms of how they lay down. If done correctly texture in the base is a non issue. Then clear it with a clear that gives the correct gloss. This will take some experimentation and someone with skill to be able to lay it down correctly. Over reducing would help someone who doesn't have the skillset to lay down perfectly texture free clear on the interior. Clear can be sprayed to match any amount of gloss or lack thereof through the use of a flattening agent.

As for the exterior it might (will?) take some formula adjustment to get the color to what you consider correct. This is common. Since lead was phased out of paint systems, that throws the formula off. Every restorer has to go through this. Key is if you are not mixing your own, to find a Jobber that has the skill to tweak the formulas and will work with you and cares about your satisfaction. Chad was mentioned above by '68. He would be one that would take the time (and also has the knowledge) to be able to tweak a formula to match your expectations on the color. If you have something with the original paint on it that would help a great deal.
Also remember chips in books are approximations. They can off one way or the other by several shades.
 
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Also remember chips in books are approximations. They can off one way or the other by several shades.
As Chris said, chips in those books were only there to see if you had the right paint code. That is not what I would go off of as a "correct" color. A correct color will only be found on an original unpainted car. Areas like the undersides of trunk lid and inside doors under trim panel will give the only "correct" color for a car. Anything else is only someones interpretation. Even an original formula with the original toners would only, at best, have been a blendable match. The formulas available now for a 50+ year old car have been modified many times over the years because of changes to toners.
 
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Thanks everybody -- I have learned that chip books aren't necessarily perfect and some aren't even paint (instead they are printed). At one point I did compare my exterior paint chip to the inside trunk lid of an original paint '63 Corvette - and it was very close. I don't really have access to the Vette (friend of a friend sort of thing) otherwise I would have the color made up from it. I'm not too concerned about deciding on a base right now.

I will likely let the man shooting the BC/CC choose the paint line he likes best. I know that Cam likes Axalta and Glasurit products. He loves SPI primers and clears.

Thanks again for the help.
 
Hi all. Just stumbled upon this forum and thought Id give some feedback. I have used all kinds of mediums on different cars over the years, both interior and exterior. I have had a positive experience with Kolor Korrect. I didnt grade their website but their customer service was great. I work on both GM and Mopars and they have always come through for me. As far as the lacquer goes, they apparently put some binders in there so the longevity is amazing. They are very transparent with their process. Some may say they are pricey, but in my opinion, what in restoration is not pricey? You get what you pay for with them and they will even suggest using other products if you dont like PPG. They transferred my original code to Base/Clear and it was perfect. Just my thoughts. I have used dozens of places claiming the same as Kolor Korrect but honestly, they are the only ones that got it right. Im not plugging them...just saying they get the job done for me every time.
 
Thanks Carl for the reply. I am still moving forward and painting the interior is a little ways off yet. I am having an issue with the vinyl color too. The Legendary sample looks like gold foil (too metallic and too shiny) - the SMS sample is better. But SMS has a reputation for being tough to work with....Thanks again.
 
If they are using PPG or another brand what happens when they run out of toners? None of the majors are manufacturing lacquer now so obviously there are only a finite amount of toners left out there. What happens three or four years down the road when you need to repair something and there is no color available?
 
Hi Chris -- I am not really considering them for the exterior (at this point), and I am still exploring options with regard to recreating the original "textured" look. I've also had access to some original cars which are color faded but retain the texture. I've done a bunch of research on getting an original look in modern paints (admittedly as an internet cowboy - not a painter) and most work arounds look like fine orange peel (for lack of a better term). When done right the surface looks a lot like 180-220 grit sandpaper. It is pretty close to dead flat.

Apparently, a "suede additive" was used by the factory to get this result -- and there is no equivalent in bc/cc. I've got a little time yet before I have to make any kind of decision...

Thanks for helping me along the way.
 
Glad it's working out for you WildCat. I wasn't trying to question you as much as just throw that thought out there for anybody thinking lacquer is a real option for the exterior. In a few years (or less) it will be all gone.
 
No problem from my end. I appreciate you taking the time. Yeah - lacquer exterior these days is not a good idea. Here is a photo of a survivor interior in my color scheme. You can see why I am trying to be careful - the differences really stand-out in the two-tone. Other colors this year (particularly black) had a more subtle difference which tends to hide the texture.
F933A587-8BF7-4194-A01C-90FA8188D8B5.jpg
 
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