Need help, nonstop dieback on clear no matter what I do.

Hey guys,

I need some help because i'm so frustrated i'm about to throw my paint equipment out the window!

Here is alittle background. I have a business making polyurethane auto body products. I went out and purchased a high end turbine system Fuji Q5 5 stage turbine 9.5PSI. So far its been wonderful, except for clear application which I cannot seem to figure out! I'm painting in a climate controlled area that is always 65 to 70 degrees. The turbine system I have is a new generation that does not get as hot as the old style units. I ran some test and the air coming out of the turbine after running for awile gets maybe 10 degrees hotter then room temperature.

I'm using another brands clear. I used their 2 hour clear and when I clear the parts they look beautiful. However as it cures it dies back. I've literally tried everything trying to debug this problem. I understand dieback is from solvents being trapped usually in basecoat because not enough flash time etc.

I've done significant test on panels and narrowed it down to the clear. I got a black raw plastic product, sanded it down, then cleared that and same dieback happened. I tried using all three hardener, the fast, medium and slow. All give the same results of dieback. I tried applying very light coats to heavy coats. I've painted them outside vs inside. I've painted them with booth fan running vs fan off. I tried spraying with different tip sizes .8m, 1.0m and 1.3m. All same results.

I tried their slower version of the same exact clear which has a 10-15 minute flash time and overnight cure. It did make a difference...I applied light coats so it came out orange peely in the pictures below but there is still some ever so slight dieback, big improvement over the speed clear however.

The main reason I went with this other brand was that they advertise their clear gets rock hard the next day, whereas I read with SPI it can be soft. I will be shipping these products that are painted so I don't want them getting scratched easily. I also would like to be able to use a tungsten carbide denib blade.

Do you have any idea of whats happening? I don't want to keep wasting money on clear and it does not work for my application. What clear do you sell that you recommend? I see others using same turbine say the universal works great. These is even a youtube video of someone spraying the SPI Universal with an Apollo Turbine. My concern is the softness?

Drop the T--co product. Try the SPI Euro instead. Call Barry in the morning.

I was wondering if you really got that clear to work. I never did...but you know that. Go with any SPI clear. My experiment with their stuff was the same as you.

The only thing I can possibly think of is that I noticed when I spray basecoat with FAST reducer. If I spray with the turbine around 6.0-6.5 which is what the manufacturer says to spray at I can put a wet coat on. I noticed if I crank the pressure all the way up to 9.5 PSI max, I get a dry spray...

If I spray clear at 6.5 PSI, I get awful solvent pop, likely because it has to go on thick to get it to flow, and even then its peely. If I spray at 9.5 PSI I get a nice finish, but thats when the dieback happens.

I'm wondering if when I spray at 9.5PSI some sort of solvent is being lost that causes the clear to skin over too quickly?

I'm going to try and clear some parts right now. I'm going to reduce the clear 10% with fast reducer, and spray at a lower PSI. Curious to see if that makes a difference.

So frustrated. Spent all this time and money on trying to get a good system. I love the turbine so far, its so quiet. Just frustrating as can be, I don't know if its the turbine or the clear thats the problem.

I need to get a cookie cutter system with material here. I got 100's of parts I gotta get painted literally, this setback has been awful.

Its wierd because one of the "drawbacks" to a turbine is that they get hot. I have one of the new generation systems that disperses the heat out the back of the unit. When I spray air out the gun, it feels same temperature as the room maybe even slightly cooler...I tried just now shooting some more test panels. I added 10% slow reducer and another 10% fast reducer. The dieback is consistently. Honestly i'm starting to think its the clear now, I just dont get it. I wasted (40) PPS cups and liners so far and almost gallon clear testing stuff. So frustrated.

I'm going to order some SPI clear tomorrow. There is a video showing it being sprayed with turbine on youtube:
Whats the difference between the Euro and Production clear? The parts i'm painting will be going on Corvette, Mustang and Porsche vehicles. I'm trying to "match" the factory peel. I need something that hardens also.

If I get any dirt nibs, I'd like to just hit it quickly with my Tungsten Block, then quick 3000Grit then polish.

Of course this clear I been experimenting with is first clear i've tried since I got the Turbine system so now i'm just confused on what hell is going on.

I can shoot Epoxy Primer, Waterborne Primer, basecoat beautifully. Even the clear goes on beautifully, it just dies back.

I'd also say give the euro clear a try for your application. I've only read about turbine systems, but even the newer systems would still have to make a difference on product requirements. I'm sure their great for the waterbourne stuff.
There is also a urethane retarder here you can try.
Sorry to say, but with any new system like you got which many are unfamiliar with, you can plan on doing a bit of sampling to hopefully get the results you need.
I'm assuming you don't have a decent air compressor or pneumatic spray gun to try?

After alot of testing i'm 100% certain it is the other companies clear. I did every variable possible. I shot the clear with a regular HVLP gun and same problem happened. That eliminated the turbine issue.

I also just sanded a plastic part and cleared that. That eliminated the undercoat trapping solvents possibility. Insanely pissed, spent so much time, money and energy!! I tried a different product they make and have no problem with that. So it has to be that clear was quality problem.

I will try the SPI product line.

A couple of notes here.
Fast reducer in base this time of year is just plain suicide and add in the turbine unit and it multiplies the risk times 3 plus.
Second, with these systems to make them work, you must experiment with slower activators in clears.
Third, these systems work well on small parts tie-rods, pulleys and chances of making them work on big areas take a lot of experimenting and still from what I have been through over the years only a very few have been successful.
I can take a$1.00 aerosol can and make a brake booster look like base clear BUT I cannot with the same can make a door look even passable.

Here is where you start for a 5% chance to make this work.
Medium or slow reducer in the base and best bet is if temp calls for medium use slow.
Clear slow if 70 degrees and you WILL need slow or very slow but you will need to test.
The best option is to also have a can of retarder and you may even need to add 2-15% to the clear but you will need to test.

There is a reason back in the late 80's these were promoted to body shops as the way to go and many shop bit but within weeks they were all sent to the corner and not touched again. AKA fence painters are their nickname and they are good with alkyds and latex type paints as well as stains.

This may not be what you want to hear but I have been involved at least trying to help someone use these at least 50 times over the years and you need to know what you are up against.

Hey Barry,

Thanks for your input. I'm painting inside, climate controlled at 65F-70F.

My turbine has a "Heat Dissipation Box" which is new for 2017 models. With the long hose I'm getting temperature readings of air coming out of the hose at basically the same temperature in the room. The old style turbines would get real hot making you need slower reducer/hardeners. The back of my turbine where the heat comes out gets as hot as 140F.

The turbine system is the 2017 Fuji Q5 model 5 stage. I shoot epoxy primer, basecoat, high build primer and waterborne primer beautifully, no issues at all.

The company who makes turbine system said there is no need to experiment with different hardeners/reducers like the old days. Use appropriate reducer/hardener for whatever temp I spraying in.

What is strange is the company who makes the speed clear sent me a sample of the slower version of that clear. I sprayed a panel with that and it looked great, however it died back ever so slightly also? Nothing compared to the speed clear.

And its 100% not the undercoats trapping solvents. I sprayed a raw plastic part, it looked beautiful, then died back exactly the way the other panels are.

Attached is photos.

I want to try your clear and see if its any different. What clear do you recommend for 70 degree. And small parts painting. I see alot of people who have turbines are using your clear successfully, I just don't know which one they are using.

2100-1 with 2103 activator, all this will do is slow flash by 3-5 minutes and total effect on clear for buffing maybe 5 minutes at worse case scenario.
Spray one wet coat, flash for 20 minutes and do a second coat if you want three coats each coat must flash 30 minutes.
By the way, re guy said that makes this thing.
If he does not how to formulate a formula, I fail to see how he can make a statement like that.
The 10 degrees now makes your temp 80 degrees.

if you are going to use a turbo set up then i suggest you invest in a chiller for your air.

I have not tried the same make and model but I owned two turbine systems. One in the late 80's and new one (now) and was supposed to be the latest and greatest. I gambled on the last one as I needed to paint a bunch of wrought iron at a vacation house I bought. Anyway, for me, it's not suitable for spraying any high end finish (I've tried a few times but...). There's a reason 90% of shops, collision and restoration, are shooting SATA and Iwata. When our name and reputation is on the finish, it will not be with a turbine, at least the turbines I've had. For me, I think I've deduced the die back is from moisture. Turbine has no way of drying the very humid air here in the south. The only answer is the compress and dry, and in my case dry again. I use a refrigerant dryer off the compressor and a desiccant dryer in the booth. The dryer and cooler I've gotten my air, the less problems I have had. Been at it 30 years. Not an expert, but boy have I learned some things, and a lot of them the hard way. And I know you have mentioned you are in a climate controlled area but still, I'm shooting with -30 degF dewpoint air.

Never seen or heard of a shop using one EVER in my 25 years doing this.

they were hot in the 70's with the diy crowd. well marketed and seemed too good to be true. now i do know guys up north that used them in winter time. warm air is not always a bad thing. hell i have even painted in the driveway with a vacuum cleaner .

Well I got to the bottom of the issue I was having. It was simply defective crappy clearcoat. I should have not ignored the recommendations I was given to use the SPI clear.

I did significant testing. I even brought the clearcoat to a neighbor who is the head painter at a very large collision repair facility. We used the clear and let it airdry, and we also did a bake on it as another test. Both resulted in the same dieback. He used a Sata gun, completely different then my turbine so we ruled that out.

I've sprayed Epoxy Primer, waterborne primer, 2K build primer with great success so far using the turbine. Just this clear was giving me problems, and of course it was the first clear I tried since using the turbine so that's what threw me off.

He gave me a small amount of PPG DC2000 to try and said it that didn't work to use the DC4000. The DC2000 worked beautifully.

Sprayed a part and it kept the gloss, was dry VERY quick, under 1 hour just to be safe. I will try the SPI clear next, hopefully the SPI works out good!

Barry, if you read this or someone else who is knowledgeable. I would like to make a fast curing clear. What do I need, the polar accelerator?

I understand the new turbine systems are much better than the older models many here have experienced. But their main professional use for years has been cabinet shops & smaller item businesses, so it may be ok for what you do.
One little question for you though, do you only have 1 spray gun with it? Particularly for clear, it's just better practice to have a dedicated gun which helps eliminate random issues like unknown specs in you clear. Even many home painters will have at least 3 guns.

I used to do mobile bumper repair about 10 years ago. I used to see competition using the turbine systems and I never even knew what they were. One day I asked and someone showed me how it worked. They were saying these use half the amount of paint and there is little overspray. Plus it was electric and no issues of compressor running out of CFM. It was perfect solution for mobile work.

I've been out of painting for awile now, but getting back into it. So I invested in a turbine system. So far I love it, I got the "quiet" model 5 stage unit. Its only 60 Db when its on, very quiet. I recently built a house and detached garage home shop. I like to work late at night and didn't want to disturb any neighbors etc. with compressor running.

I bought 3 guns and 3 aircap/needle setups the .8mm, 1.0mm and 1.3mm tip. From what I understand with the turbines you go down in size from what you normally use.

I can see huge difference as far as paint usage, there is very little overspray. The finishes go on beautifully also.

Here is a video of a test panel I shot with the turbine to show how nice it shoots off the gun with 1.0mm tip.



That panel dried like the attached photo below, ridiculous.

ebaypdllc said:

Well I got to the bottom of the issue I was having. It was simply defective crappy clearcoat. I should have not ignored the recommendations I was given to use the SPI clear.

I did significant testing. I even brought the clearcoat to a neighbor who is the head painter at a very large collision repair facility. We used the clear and let it airdry, and we also did a bake on it as another test. Both resulted in the same dieback. He used a Sata gun, completely different then my turbine so we ruled that out.

I've sprayed Epoxy Primer, waterborne primer, 2K build primer with great success so far using the turbine. Just this clear was giving me problems, and of course it was the first clear I tried since using the turbine so that's what threw me off.

He gave me a small amount of PPG DC2000 to try and said it that didn't work to use the DC4000. The DC2000 worked beautifully.

Sprayed a part and it kept the gloss, was dry VERY quick, under 1 hour just to be safe. I will try the SPI clear next, hopefully the SPI works out good!

Barry, if you read this or someone else who is knowledgeable. I would like to make a fast curing clear. What do I need, the polar accelerator?

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Great question and glad you figured everything out.
I'm using a customer for 12 years in NE that does car lot painting full time for four dealerships that sell cars from $150,000 to 1,000,000 as an example for us to go by.
Bumpers can get 130 and up degrees when painting and he uses a system like yours on all three of his trucks.
Took us 2 months to get right and here is what we do.
He uses two clears, Universal and 5000 but slowest reducer or slowest activator and to his 6oz mix adds 1 to 2 cap fulls of polar as he like to buff in an hour (sometimes)
OH, did you know a new bumper on a Rolls and paint is $25,000!!!!!
In your case:
I would use slow activator and to a mix, quart add 1 oz to 2 oz of polar. and we can adjust either way to fit your needs.
Results should be close to:
One wet coat dust free in 4-6 mins.
Second coat spray in 15-20 minutes yes you can faster but remember to cure faster you go slower.
Ready to buff in 2 hours.
Of course, I would buff next day but this gives you an opening.
Could ship next day but any extra days are always a good policy.
In your case, I would use 2100 and 2103 activator.
From here we can fine tune as we get experience with your spray habits and system using.

One note is you said 2000 clear of PPG, did you mean 2002? If 2002 worked that that clear is tit for tat like the universal, they can even be mixed together they are so close.;

It's this stuff Barry. All the (good) old PPG clears like 2002 are pretty much discontinued. I think you can get the 2002 still but sweet baby Jesus it's expensive. My favorite PPG clear was the old 2001. My new favorite clear is the 5000 Euro.

Off topic but I shot a Lexus late this afternoon, 104 degrees in the booth. Brutal. Gun; Sata 5000RP 1.3.Used the Euro 5000, slow activator, 895 reducer. 4:1:1. Then added 10% of the retarder. Laid down perfect even in that kind of temperature. No solvent pop at all. Awesome stuff , affordable (about a 1/3 of what DC2000 costs Ebay) Thank you again Barry.

Excellent thank you Barry. I will be calling tomorrow to order.

The PPG clear was "DC2000". Expensive stuff, I think its close to $400 with hardener for gallon...YIKES....Put I guess someone has to pay for their PPG race team lol.

Excited to use the SPI, i've heard nothing but good things. I've been talking to people who use turbines with the SPI on instagram. Everyone is having tremendous success.